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    In honour of the return of the Wolf to the fold, and in recognition of his declaration of James Johnson as his favoured suspect, I thought it might be a good idea to create a thread where people could present the bare facts of their POI's as briefly, and with the least amount of spin, as possible.

    (Hopefully we won't get to the letter L and turn into a Punch and Judy show.)

    Here's my contribution:

    Sometime between 9th November, 1887 (a significant family date) and 20th April, 1888, a family of horse-slaughterers moved from Manchester to the East End.

    They had their origins in Belle Isle, Islington, described by Charles Booth as 'the chief seat of the London horse-slaughterers', but they had been run out of town in 1872 after the head of the family had been caught pinching horse fat from his employer, John Harrison (the founder of Harrison, Barber).

    In the 1870s, Manchester was in the grip of the 'scuttling' craze - a form of 'postcode' gang warfare between groups of young men/boys, sometimes numbered in the hundreds, who jealously guarded their turf, and mercilessly beat and stabbed any outsiders who dared encroach on it. In 1874, the matriarch of the Belle Isle family was subjected to a vicious assault by a woman whose description was almost identical to that of Polly Nichols.

    Shortly after the family returned to London to work in Harrison, Barber's Winthrop Street yard, the father was found in an alcoholic coma in or near the yard, from which he did not recover. At the time his three oldest sons were aged 29, 27 and 17.

    The family's brief stay in the East End (1887/8 - 1891/2) was a tragic one for them personally, and almost exactly coincided with the tragic events that have come down to us as the Whitechapel Murders.

    Three weeks prior to the father's death, Emma Smith had been assaulted by a group of three men, the youngest of whom she was reported to have said was no older than 19. Smith's murder did not exactly grab the headlines, but one provincial newspaper saw fit to cover it thus:


    image.jpeg

    The oldest of the brothers appeared as a witness at Polly Nichols' inquest and, in my view, pulled the wool over the eyes of the coroner, the legendary Wynne Baxter. He tacitly admitted that prostitutes called at the yard, implausibly denied that he had been to the pub on the evening in question, and concocted a story of there being two men at the murder site when he arrived. It appears that he ran ahead of his workmates to ensure he was the first in Buck's Row. He died in February, 1891, three days before Frances Coles was murdered, leaving just one of the brothers in the East End. Shortly afterwards, the last remaining family members returned to Manchester.

    As far as I know, there is no record of any of the brothers being involved in acts of violence towards a human victim. However, day in, day out (excluding Sundays) their occupation involved the stunning, bleeding, eviscerating, flaying and butchering of large mammals (primarily horses), at speed and in poor light.

    As Jimmy Cricket used to say, 'there's more!', but I didn't want to get too deeply into the conjectural.

    (But if you're interested, there's a bit more of the story here: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....light=Coventry)

  • #2
    My kind of thread, Gary! Nice work on Harrison, Barber's, by the way!

    If we go off AP's criteria, both our POI's come up a little short. His criteria included an offense similar to the WM. Your POI has a nice back-round in butchering, which makes my POI a pussycat, but no known offenses similar to the WM. My POI has neither, which is a bad start. But he does have some interesting geographical connections which do interest me. I have spoken of him recently, but I feel he deserves a check up every other year or so for evolving details.

    Franklin Sydney King was born in St. Botolph Aldgate, in 1842. His early years were spent living on Houndsditch and later at No. 5 Mitre Street in the 1851 and 1861 Census. After several years in and out of bankruptcy as a partner in his father's building contracting business in the late 60's and early 70's, he worked his career up to that of a land surveyor. David S. King and Sons were a fairly lucrative builder at one point employing 66 men in 1851. Some of their building work was for the Jews in and around Mitre Square.

    After his father's death, Franklin carried on the building business. The firm had listings at several properties that are important to the Jack the Ripper murder series. One being No. 5 Mitre Street, which the family had mention of being connected to up until 1881, possibly later. As I have mentioned before, the gate and yard that Catherine Eddowes body was found near, led into a back entrance to No. 5 Mitre Street. In further research it was found that David King and Sons leased or owned properties at Billiter Square, Mark Lane, King Street (behind Mitre Square at the intersection of St. James Square) and another curious property on Goulston Street. From the best I can tell the Goulston Street address was actually called Goulston Court. I am not 100% positive yet but it appears this building, if you could walk straight to the back (east), would take you to the front door of their business in 1889 in Castle Alley. It was exactly in front of the door of David King and Sons in Castle Alley that Alice McKenzie was murdered in July of 1889.

    From mid summer 1888 to 1889, Franklin S. King was involved in another bankruptcy. I haven't found exactly where he was living in 1888/9 but in the 1881 census he is listed in Paddington and in 1891 in Croydon. The Croydon address was mentioned in some of his earlier bankruptcy proceedings so I think he had that property on Wellesley Road for a few years.

    I know calling him a POI is a bit of a stretch, but to have two women murdered in front of properties he was closely related with and he was known to be present in the area at the right time is a little intriguing, isn't it?

    Franklin died in Croydon in 1892.

    Comment


    • #3
      Perfect, Jerry!

      Comment


      • #4
        Gary,

        Here's another one I was piecing together tonight.

        I'll start with a couple news clips.

        Trenton Times
        New Jersey, USA
        31 December 1888


        The police have received and traced to their origin letters which lead them to believe that Jack the Ripper is living in the vicinity of Drury Lane. They do not accept the theory that the Whitechapel fiend had anything to do with the murder of little John Gill, and seem confident that the clew upon which they are now working will result in the murderer's capture in London.

        Daily News
        United Kingdom
        8 December 1888


        At Worship street Police court yesterday, Joseph Isaacs, 30, who said he had no fixed abode, and described himself as a cigar maker, was charged with having stolen a watch, value 30s., the goods of Julius Levenson. The prisoner, who was brought up in the custody of Detective Sergeant Record, H Division, is the man who was arrested in Drury lane on Thursday afternoon on suspicion of being connected with the Whitechapel murders. It transpired during the hearing of this charge that it was committed at the very time the prisoner was being watched as a person "wanted." The prosecutor Levenson said that the prisoner entered his shop on the 5th inst. with a violin bow, and asked him to repair it. Whilst discussing the matter the prisoner bolted out of the shop, and witness missed a gold watch belonging to a customer. The watch had been found at a pawnshop. To prove that the prisoner was the man who entered the shop a woman named Mary Cusins was called. She is deputy of a lodging house in Paternoster row, Spitalfields, and said that the prisoner had lodged in the house as a single lodger for three or four nights before the Dorset street murder - the murder of Mary Janet Kelly, in Miller's court. He disappeared after that murder, leaving the violin bow behind. The witness on the house to house inspection gave information to the police, and said she remembered that on the night of the murder she heard the prisoner walking about his room. After her statement a look out was kept for the prisoner, whose appearance certainly answered the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat. He visited the lodging house on the 5th and asked for the violin bow. It was given to him, and the witness Cusins followed him to give him into custody as requested. She saw him enter Levenson's shop and almost immediately run out. Detective Record said that there were some matters alleged against the prisoner which it was desired to inquire into. Mr. Bushby remanded the prisoner.

        Here's four people with very strange stories during the Autumn of 1888. One fits the description of Astrakhan Man (Isaacs), one fits the description of blotchy man (Arnold), one has a horse and cart and was questioned by Donald Swanson and released prior to them finding John Arnold (Arnold coincidentally used Lynch's alias of John (C)Leary and Lynch's former address at 21 Whitehorse Yard and then we have the enigma that is Pearly Poll.

        I've always thought some of the torso victims could have been ladies attending the theatre. There were plenty of theatres in the Drury Lane area. I also found a news clip I posted some time ago that reported on the arrest of a Joseph Isaacs, age 28 (cigar maker) and another young man named John Adler for assaulting the porters in the ladies waiting room at the Bishopsgate Railway Station on Monday, April 2, 1888 at 5 p.m. There were a gang of six other youths with them. Emma Smith was attacked by a gang of youths the very next day. Adler lived on Hanbury Street. Isaacs address was given on City Road. Several ripper letters used the address of City road.

        I've always held to the theory that the ripper and torso man were working in collusion. I've also always held the belief that John Arnold's story was too much to be coincidence.

        Map arrow key:
        Purple= Princes street-Joseph Isaacs was arrested in Dec 1888 for theft of a Jeweler
        Blue= Whitehorse Yard- Former home of John Arnold and former home of Dennis Lynch under the alias of John Leary.
        Red=Newcastle Street- address of Mr. Matley's grocer shop where Dennis Lynch worked doing odd jobs as a carman for the past 10 years.
        Green= Feather Court- Pearly Poll stayed with her cousin on August 10th and 11th, 1888.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          In honour of the return of the Wolf to the fold, and in recognition of his declaration of James Johnson as his favoured suspect, I thought it might be a good idea to create a thread where people could present the bare facts of their POI's as briefly, and with the least amount of spin, as possible.

          (Hopefully we won't get to the letter L and turn into a Punch and Judy show.)

          Here's my contribution:

          Sometime between 9th November, 1887 (a significant family date) and 20th April, 1888, a family of horse-slaughterers moved from Manchester to the East End.

          They had their origins in Belle Isle, Islington, described by Charles Booth as 'the chief seat of the London horse-slaughterers', but they had been run out of town in 1872 after the head of the family had been caught pinching horse fat from his employer, John Harrison (the founder of Harrison, Barber).

          In the 1870s, Manchester was in the grip of the 'scuttling' craze - a form of 'postcode' gang warfare between groups of young men/boys, sometimes numbered in the hundreds, who jealously guarded their turf, and mercilessly beat and stabbed any outsiders who dared encroach on it. In 1874, the matriarch of the Belle Isle family was subjected to a vicious assault by a woman whose description was almost identical to that of Polly Nichols.

          Shortly after the family returned to London to work in Harrison, Barber's Winthrop Street yard, the father was found in an alcoholic coma in or near the yard, from which he did not recover. At the time his three oldest sons were aged 29, 27 and 17.

          The family's brief stay in the East End (1887/8 - 1891/2) was a tragic one for them personally, and almost exactly coincided with the tragic events that have come down to us as the Whitechapel Murders.

          Three weeks prior to the father's death, Emma Smith had been assaulted by a group of three men, the youngest of whom she was reported to have said was no older than 19. Smith's murder did not exactly grab the headlines, but one provincial newspaper saw fit to cover it thus:


          [ATTACH]17284[/ATTACH]

          The oldest of the brothers appeared as a witness at Polly Nichols' inquest and, in my view, pulled the wool over the eyes of the coroner, the legendary Wynne Baxter. He tacitly admitted that prostitutes called at the yard, implausibly denied that he had been to the pub on the evening in question, and concocted a story of there being two men at the murder site when he arrived. It appears that he ran ahead of his workmates to ensure he was the first in Buck's Row. He died in February, 1891, three days before Frances Coles was murdered, leaving just one of the brothers in the East End. Shortly afterwards, the last remaining family members returned to Manchester.

          As far as I know, there is no record of any of the brothers being involved in acts of violence towards a human victim. However, day in, day out (excluding Sundays) their occupation involved the stunning, bleeding, eviscerating, flaying and butchering of large mammals (primarily horses), at speed and in poor light.

          As Jimmy Cricket used to say, 'there's more!', but I didn't want to get too deeply into the conjectural.

          (But if you're interested, there's a bit more of the story here: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....light=Coventry)
          whos the wolf, whos james Johnson and who is your POI?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
            My kind of thread, Gary! Nice work on Harrison, Barber's, by the way!

            If we go off AP's criteria, both our POI's come up a little short. His criteria included an offense similar to the WM. Your POI has a nice back-round in butchering, which makes my POI a pussycat, but no known offenses similar to the WM. My POI has neither, which is a bad start. But he does have some interesting geographical connections which do interest me. I have spoken of him recently, but I feel he deserves a check up every other year or so for evolving details.

            Franklin Sydney King was born in St. Botolph Aldgate, in 1842. His early years were spent living on Houndsditch and later at No. 5 Mitre Street in the 1851 and 1861 Census. After several years in and out of bankruptcy as a partner in his father's building contracting business in the late 60's and early 70's, he worked his career up to that of a land surveyor. David S. King and Sons were a fairly lucrative builder at one point employing 66 men in 1851. Some of their building work was for the Jews in and around Mitre Square.

            After his father's death, Franklin carried on the building business. The firm had listings at several properties that are important to the Jack the Ripper murder series. One being No. 5 Mitre Street, which the family had mention of being connected to up until 1881, possibly later. As I have mentioned before, the gate and yard that Catherine Eddowes body was found near, led into a back entrance to No. 5 Mitre Street. In further research it was found that David King and Sons leased or owned properties at Billiter Square, Mark Lane, King Street (behind Mitre Square at the intersection of St. James Square) and another curious property on Goulston Street. From the best I can tell the Goulston Street address was actually called Goulston Court. I am not 100% positive yet but it appears this building, if you could walk straight to the back (east), would take you to the front door of their business in 1889 in Castle Alley. It was exactly in front of the door of David King and Sons in Castle Alley that Alice McKenzie was murdered in July of 1889.

            From mid summer 1888 to 1889, Franklin S. King was involved in another bankruptcy. I haven't found exactly where he was living in 1888/9 but in the 1881 census he is listed in Paddington and in 1891 in Croydon. The Croydon address was mentioned in some of his earlier bankruptcy proceedings so I think he had that property on Wellesley Road for a few years.

            I know calling him a POI is a bit of a stretch, but to have two women murdered in front of properties he was closely related with and he was known to be present in the area at the right time is a little intriguing, isn't it?

            Franklin died in Croydon in 1892.
            and this guy is your favorite suspect (POI)? I don't get it-whats this thread all about? your favored suspect? your favored person who has some connection to the case geographically? please explain

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              and this guy is your favorite suspect (POI)? I don't get it-whats this thread all about? your favored suspect? your favored person who has some connection to the case geographically? please explain
              Hi Abby,

              I wouldn't go as far to say he is my favorite, anything. He is definitely not near to calling a suspect either. With King it all started with the arm found in Pimlico in J.T Chappelles lumber yard. I was trying to connect a builder with the Whitehall torso since she was found in the construction of the new police building. Franklin King was a builder and happened to have an office that McKenzies body was found in front of and the gate of his former home is where Eddowes was found murdered. He could possibly have subcontracted in the building of New Scotland Yard. Of course there is more to him and I have a thread on it somewhere here, but I find potential in him as a POI. John Arnold and Dennis Lynch have always interested me as POI's in the Pinchin torso deposit and Arnold matches a lot of the witness descriptions at the murder scenes.

              If you haven't figured me out yet, Abby, I get WAY out of the box sometimes.

              I took this thread to be the "what if" of non-suspects.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                Hi Abby,

                I wouldn't go as far to say he is my favorite, anything. He is definitely not near to calling a suspect either. With King it all started with the arm found in Pimlico in J.T Chappelles lumber yard. I was trying to connect a builder with the Whitehall torso since she was found in the construction of the new police building. Franklin King was a builder and happened to have an office that McKenzies body was found in front of and the gate of his former home is where Eddowes was found murdered. He could possibly have subcontracted in the building of New Scotland Yard. Of course there is more to him and I have a thread on it somewhere here, but I find potential in him as a POI. John Arnold and Dennis Lynch have always interested me as POI's in the Pinchin torso deposit and Arnold matches a lot of the witness descriptions at the murder scenes.

                If you haven't figured me out yet, Abby, I get WAY out of the box sometimes.

                I took this thread to be the "what if" of non-suspects.
                Hi Jerry
                Thanks!! I think I got the gist of it and out of the box is nice. So in the spirit of out of the Box thinking and what if of non suspects I'll present my own who I have been thinking about recently(And just be clear this person is not on my list even of viable suspects).

                This man was well known to the police.
                He has a definite connection to the case.
                He was accused of police at the time of being the originator of a key piece of evidence.
                He was in the area at the time of the crimes.
                He apparently had a drinking problem and took a bad down turn after the ripper murders.

                As far as I know he has never been considered a suspect or even POI.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Hi Jerry
                  Thanks!! I think I got the gist of it and out of the box is nice. So in the spirit of out of the Box thinking and what if of non suspects I'll present my own who I have been thinking about recently(And just be clear this person is not on my list even of viable suspects).

                  This man was well known to the police.
                  He has a definite connection to the case.
                  He was accused of police at the time of being the originator of a key piece of evidence.
                  He was in the area at the time of the crimes.
                  He apparently had a drinking problem and took a bad down turn after the ripper murders.

                  As far as I know he has never been considered a suspect or even POI.
                  Shot in the dark...Thomas Bulling?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                    Shot in the dark...Thomas Bulling?
                    Winner winner chicken dinner!

                    In my mind I think it's about 60% the ripper wrote dear boss. Apparently several of higher ups in the police thought bulling probably wrote it. He was there, had a connection to the case and took a down turn mentally after the murders.

                    Considering all the attention (and apparent validity by people who's opinion I respect) a certain famous " letter writer" has been getting recently made me think of Bulling. And the more I think of it he is more of a valid POI than sickert could possibly be IMHO Just not as sexy I guess. LOL.

                    I don't think Bulling has ever been considered a suspect or even POI before, from police at the time or modern opinion but why not? Seems a much better prospect to me than many others that have been put forth and seriously considered.

                    If any others want to add anything that helps rule him in or out would be greatly appreciated or to point me in the right direction to learn more about this man.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      whos the wolf, whos james Johnson and who is your POI?
                      Apologies for the delay in responding, Abby. The Wolf is A.P. Wolf and James Johnson is A.P.'s POI (I think that's fair to say). My POIs in this instance are the Tomkins brothers, Henry, Thomas and Robert. POIs in the sense that they interest me because of their occupation and background, they were in the East End at the time of the WM and one of them found himself caught up in the Nichols case.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        Apologies for the delay in responding, Abby. The Wolf is A.P. Wolf and James Johnson is A.P.'s POI (I think that's fair to say). My POIs in this instance are the Tomkins brothers, Henry, Thomas and Robert. POIs in the sense that they interest me because of their occupation and background, they were in the East End at the time of the WM and one of them found himself caught up in the Nichols case.
                        Thanks Gary
                        why does the wolf think JJ is a POI?

                        your POI was one of the slaughtermen who was early on the scene of Pollys murder correct?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Thanks Gary
                          why does the wolf think JJ is a POI?

                          your POI was one of the slaughtermen who was early on the scene of Pollys murder correct?
                          Hi Abby,

                          AP's views on Johnson can be found here:

                          http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....hlight=Johnson

                          And info on the Tomkins brothers, one of whom, as you say, was the first civilian at the scene in Buck's Row, here:

                          http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=6311&page=79

                          Comment

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