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  • Hi Gary


    I don't know their basis, but found this post from the days when I was only knee high to John Bercow :


    https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/7187.html

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
      Hi Gary


      I don't know their basis, but found this post from the days when I was only knee high to John Bercow :


      https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/7187.html
      Thanks, Rob.

      Obviously Tabram was included among the Whitechapel Murders, and Abberline being a Chapmanite would be tempted to include a murder in George Yard among his list, I'd imagine.

      Comment


      • It appears Fogarty was led about by women. I could see Martha leading him upstairs to the landing but then he would need to get back down and with his friends or wherever he needed to go.

        I think in Tom Wescott's "Bank Holiday Murders" there is detail about small crowds that were down on the street that night. In considering any of the murders that year it seems a blind man who was accustomed to being led by another person, would have been noticeable as he left the crime scenes.

        If we want to guess and theorize we could suggest he got mad at Martha and started stabbing. A friend came to see what was taking him so long and the friend helped finish off the victim/witness, thus two or more knives. It was the last stab in the chest that was fatal, was it not? That peculiarity has always gotten my attention, so many stabs that were not fatal.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
          It appears Fogarty was led about by women. I could see Martha leading him upstairs to the landing but then he would need to get back down and with his friends or wherever he needed to go.

          I think in Tom Wescott's "Bank Holiday Murders" there is detail about small crowds that were down on the street that night. In considering any of the murders that year it seems a blind man who was accustomed to being led by another person, would have been noticeable as he left the crime scenes.

          If we want to guess and theorize we could suggest he got mad at Martha and started stabbing. A friend came to see what was taking him so long and the friend helped finish off the victim/witness, thus two or more knives. It was the last stab in the chest that was fatal, was it not? That peculiarity has always gotten my attention, so many stabs that were not fatal.
          Thanks, Anna. You make some interesting points.

          From the little we know of him, I imagine Fogarty to have been quite a resourceful sort of person. Having a guide to lead him to unfamiliar places and keep an eye out for anyone who might try to steal his stock or his takings, would no doubt have been very useful, but I doubt that he couldn't have got around at all without one.

          Given that the stairs and landings of George Yard Buildings were apparently unlit, I don't think a blind man would have been at much of a disadvantage to a sighted one in making an exit from it. As for the attack on Tabram, we have an almost carbon copy of it taking place a few weeks later and being committed by a blind man.

          We don't know where Fogarty was living at the time. He may have been based in Spitalfields, at times he lodged in Brick Lane and Princelet Street, or in STGITE. Many of his workhouse and infirmary admissions give his address as 'homeless', so maybe he often used to find a dark corner somewhere and curl up for the night.

          One of the popular explanations for the Ripper's ability to evade capture has been that he was someone whom no one would have suspected - a policeman, perhaps, or a clergyman. How about old blind Tommy tapping his homeless way along the streets or curled up in a corner, might he have been overlooked?

          I've been rereading TBHM myself recently. Having the possibility that Poll might have had a violent boyfriend at the back of my mind, her undeniably suspicious antics seem to make more sense than otherwise. As for the liveliness of the streets that night, that was much earlier and was probably little different from most nights after the pubs cleared out. I imagine they would have been a lot quieter at the time of the Tabram attack.

          Comment


          • "....and I was just getting into bed, Dud, when all of a sudden tap, tap, tap - bloody Tommy Fogarty. He said, 'want to buy some laces?' so out of charity I bought him a pair for his own boots. And then he used them to kick my head in."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
              "....and I was just getting into bed, Dud, when all of a sudden tap, tap, tap - bloody Tommy Fogarty. He said, 'want to buy some laces?' so out of charity I bought him a pair for his own boots. And then he used them to kick my head in."
              Made a change from bloody Greta Garbo.

              Methinks Foggy may have drunk from the Doolally tap.

              Comment


              • Does anyone have access to historical Indian newspapers?

                I'm wondering whether the incident in Poona for which the soldier TF was court-martialled might have received press coverage.

                Comment


                • You might like to check The Asiatic Journal online. I don't know whether it was just for officers - court martials for underlings being rather vulgar.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                    "....and I was just getting into bed, Dud, when all of a sudden tap, tap, tap - bloody Tommy Fogarty. He said, 'want to buy some laces?' so out of charity I bought him a pair for his own boots. And then he used them to kick my head in."
                    Hilarious! (The only reason I have been earning more points in the caption contest is because you are not there. Nobody's mind twists quite like yours!)
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment


                    • I am thinking there has to be more to Fogarty than we know.

                      He was led around by companions yet it SEEMS he must have had SOME sight to perpetrate some of the other attacks. How blind was he?

                      I agree with Gary that one of my strongest thoughts about JtR is that he was someone that would never be suspected, including that he was a homeless beggar. I have strong feelings about coster mongers carts. Some of the murders happened near where markets were setting up. Alice was killed near parked carts. Wouldn't a cart, even underneath a cart, provide shelter for a homeless person? Perhaps it could be so simple that JtR just resumed his normal place under a cart as a blind, homeless man?

                      I could imagine a blind man killing MJK. My first thought is the killer was insane but blind also makes sense. Blind and insane is even better.

                      Fogarty seems to be out of control at least half the time. Insane is a good descriptor. So why would Poll marry him? Generally people instinctively avoid insane people and certainly do not marry them. What were the advantages to her? Or could he have extorted her into marriage? Like they knew a certain secret, maybe about Martha? I know there were a lot of wild characters in the East End and a number of them went berzerk when drunk but Fogarty seems to be in a class by himself.

                      All this actually argues against Fogarty being Jack, however. Most of the C-5 were in need of money when they were killed. Would they have accepted Fogarty as a source of money? I can see him killing Martha but think he did not kill others.

                      Purely out of curiosity, do we have any idea if Fogarty bought the laces he sold or did he make them? A blind man could have been taught to use a lucet for instance. (I make needle lace but am too stupid to make a lucet work. Lucets are like big, two pronged carving forks and should be extremely simple for a blind person to use. The trick is keeping the right tension on the lace being made.)
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                        Hilarious! (The only reason I have been earning more points in the caption contest is because you are not there. Nobody's mind twists quite like yours!)
                        Anna,

                        Are you familiar with Pete and Dud?

                        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ilmOHfnIpFI

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                          I am thinking there has to be more to Fogarty than we know.

                          He was led around by companions yet it SEEMS he must have had SOME sight to perpetrate some of the other attacks. How blind was he?

                          I agree with Gary that one of my strongest thoughts about JtR is that he was someone that would never be suspected, including that he was a homeless beggar. I have strong feelings about coster mongers carts. Some of the murders happened near where markets were setting up. Alice was killed near parked carts. Wouldn't a cart, even underneath a cart, provide shelter for a homeless person? Perhaps it could be so simple that JtR just resumed his normal place under a cart as a blind, homeless man?

                          I could imagine a blind man killing MJK. My first thought is the killer was insane but blind also makes sense. Blind and insane is even better.

                          Fogarty seems to be out of control at least half the time. Insane is a good descriptor. So why would Poll marry him? Generally people instinctively avoid insane people and certainly do not marry them. What were the advantages to her? Or could he have extorted her into marriage? Like they knew a certain secret, maybe about Martha? I know there were a lot of wild characters in the East End and a number of them went berzerk when drunk but Fogarty seems to be in a class by himself.

                          All this actually argues against Fogarty being Jack, however. Most of the C-5 were in need of money when they were killed. Would they have accepted Fogarty as a source of money? I can see him killing Martha but think he did not kill others.

                          Purely out of curiosity, do we have any idea if Fogarty bought the laces he sold or did he make them? A blind man could have been taught to use a lucet for instance. (I make needle lace but am too stupid to make a lucet work. Lucets are like big, two pronged carving forks and should be extremely simple for a blind person to use. The trick is keeping the right tension on the lace being made.)
                          Anna,

                          Although the press report of the Spitalfields attack describes the attacker as a seller of lace, I suspect he sold boot/shoe laces. Do you call them something different in the US?

                          Laces and matches were typically sold on the streets by the blind. Interestingly, the Crispin Street Refuge helped such hawkers by supplying them with stock.

                          BTW the town of Honiton near to where we now live is famous for its lace (not laces).

                          Gary

                          Comment


                          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honiton_lace


                            But does Honiton do breakfast fry-ups?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                              Anna,

                              Are you familiar with Pete and Dud?

                              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ilmOHfnIpFI
                              That is my first introduction to them. They were offered to me the other night when I had sought out "My Old Man's a Dustman", one of my favorite songs.

                              Speaking of that, one of the verses made me think of 1888 Whitechapel. A police dog was found in the dust bin. How do you know he was a police dog? Because the policeman was in the bin with him.

                              I figured out quite awhile ago that Fogarty sold boot laces. We usually add a defining word like boot rather than just plain "laces." My personal comment was poorly written and didn't add much. (I am a skilled fiber artist and can do some very delicate and complex work.) The lucet makes boot laces and cords. Two pronged fork, loop around the tines in a figure 8, then wrap and slip loops over each other. (I cannot master this because I cannot learn to control the tension at the bottom.) It is an extremely simple and ancient craft and Fogarty could have made the laces he sold. I don't know that it would matter a great deal in our understanding of him but I suppose it could indicate if he had had training in a blind school.

                              And if any victims had prong marks on their bodies, it might be of interest, but I don't think any did.

                              I have a special interest in crafts the people of Whitechapel may have done to supplement their earnings. Annie Chapman did crochet work. Reportedly she made antimacassars but I wonder if she knew Irish lace, something that was introduced to help the poor women of Ireland. (At this time the best, most creative Irish lace is done by Russian women.) Long before 1888 the silk weavers of Spitalfields made a few shillings a week making fly fringe from silk thread. I could imagine grandmother sitting quietly, making fly fringe to add to the family coffers. Or maybe the kids. How many characters do we know from circa 1888 who may have had skills to make small items for sale?
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                              Comment


                              • Thinking even deeper about Fogarty and "laces", presuming boot laces, perhaps these were leather laces? I remember my dad's work boots--he worked in the woods--being leather even into the early 60's. These laces frequently broke and were tied together to continue use. I don't know why leather laces were used since tennis shoes and such of the time had regular shoe laces or other cordage. Maybe the leather was less likely to pick up burrs and such in the woods. My hiking boots with fabric laces certainly do pick up nasty stuff sometimes.

                                Now if we connect Fogarty to any level of the leather trade, we might get into discussion about various knives.

                                Stupid me, thinking he may have woven laces for sale. Perhaps he cut leather laces? Or perhaps he had lengths of leather that could be cut to length for the customer? There are lots of dangerous tools that can be used in leather working depending on how much work a person plans to do.

                                I do understand though, what Gary said about blind people selling certain things. Maybe everything was created for easy sale? Maybe those items were manufactured in a blind school? I think some of those items sold by the blind in the U.S. of years ago were said to be made in blind schools.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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