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  • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Thanks, Roy & Tom.

    There is another IPN (I think) image of Tabram lying with her head on a step and what appears to be the WC doors immediately behind her. In that one, the stab wounds are depicted as having gone through her clothing. And in the full image that Jake L cropped top left in his montage is an image labelled ‘victim’s corset stabbed through’.

    I doubt the IPN artist saw the body in situ, but perhaps it’s position was described to him by the residents.
    He definitely did not see her in situ and couldn't have depicted her nude anyway. But he would have gone to the site and had it pointed out to him. Back in the day I considered the same artists work for other Ripper sites and they were pretty accurate as I recall. I'm thinking of Bucks Row and Berner Street.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • Pearly Poll first went to the police a day or two after the murder.

      But anyway, check this out from my pal Chris Bolister...

      https://youtu.be/3RXUkXeHphk

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
        Pearly Poll first went to the police a day or two after the murder.

        But anyway, check this out from my pal Chris Bolister...

        https://youtu.be/3RXUkXeHphk
        Thanks for the correction and the EXCELLENT video. (Do I guess this song will not be the theme song for any film made of HR's book?)
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
          Pearly Poll first went to the police a day or two after the murder.

          But anyway, check this out from my pal Chris Bolister...

          https://youtu.be/3RXUkXeHphk
          That was pretty cool. I guess the foggy/Fogarty thing brought that to mind?

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

          Comment


          • Gary,

            A couple of people have suggested to me you might be having a laugh with the whole Fogarty thing (i.e. you don't think he was the Ripper) and are doing your version of a parody to see how gullible everyone is. I don't suppose there's any truth to that. If there is, would you say so?

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
              Gary,

              A couple of people have suggested to me you might be having a laugh with the whole Fogarty thing (i.e. you don't think he was the Ripper) and are doing your version of a parody to see how gullible everyone is. I don't suppose there's any truth to that. If there is, would you say so?

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott
              As I say, Tom, I am only considering Fogarty as a potential suspect in the Tabram case. If I were trying to pull peoples legs, I’d be flying some kind of grand conspiracy based on nothing at all. Or putting the finger on Daniel Sullivan because his sister’s name was Margaret. Something silly like that.

              Proposing a vicious mentally unstable blind man with a history of violence towards women may seem a bit odd to some, but it suits my simplistic view of things.

              I’ve even got the title for the book:

              ‘Blind Fury: The Absolutely Pukkah Story of a Whitechapel Murder.’

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                He definitely did not see her in situ and couldn't have depicted her nude anyway. But he would have gone to the site and had it pointed out to him. Back in the day I considered the same artists work for other Ripper sites and they were pretty accurate as I recall. I'm thinking of Bucks Row and Berner Street.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott
                I wonder how accurate the depiction of the corset was?

                She wasn’t nude, though, was she? Upper clothes pulled apart and skirts thrown up wasn’t it? If she had been entirely stripped of her clothes, that would have been mentioned.

                The IPN weren’t averse to a little semi-nudity:

                25A67E13-7D79-4AEA-9BD3-BD15C66A23A6.jpeg

                Comment


                • I see merit in Gary's thinking. The deadly attack on Martha was very peculiar and I could imagine a blind man doing it.
                  The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                  Comment


                  • Gary,

                    I'll take your word for it that you're not pulling my leg. Playing devil's advocate, I can consider the pros and cons of a blind suspect. Here's one pro - as I detailed in BHM, there's reason to suspect the bigger weapon used by the killer to have been a sword stick. The blade is in keeping with a sword stick, Pearly Poll, in one version of her story, puts a stick in the hand of one of her soldiers. He uses it to hit her (Poll). It seems perfectly logical to me that a blind man would have a walking stick and in an area like the East End, just as logical that this walking stick would also serve as a weapon.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                      Pearly Poll first went to the police a day or two after the murder.

                      But anyway, check this out from my pal Chris Bolister...

                      https://youtu.be/3RXUkXeHphk
                      A small off-topic comment on this video=> I have fortunately or unfortunately spent quite a bit of time of youtube and it seems they use some kind of algorithm to decide what will be popular and featured. Thus I end up giving thumbs up to some stuff I don't think is that good but I want to help the person doing the channel.

                      I gave thumbs up to the video linked here because I really think it is good and I really like it. I also subscribed to the channel because I like his music. Thumbs up plus subscriptions seem to mean a lot. My point is, if anyone else here likes this video, a thumbs up would be good for the artist.
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                        Gary,

                        I'll take your word for it that you're not pulling my leg. Playing devil's advocate, I can consider the pros and cons of a blind suspect. Here's one pro - as I detailed in BHM, there's reason to suspect the bigger weapon used by the killer to have been a sword stick. The blade is in keeping with a sword stick, Pearly Poll, in one version of her story, puts a stick in the hand of one of her soldiers. He uses it to hit her (Poll). It seems perfectly logical to me that a blind man would have a walking stick and in an area like the East End, just as logical that this walking stick would also serve as a weapon.

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott
                        The weapon Fogarty used on Millicent Fox was described as a ‘heavy’ stick. A sword stick would perhaps not be long or stout enough for blind man to use as a walking aid, and perhaps be a bit fiddly for him to use as a weapon. And I don’t see why we should favour a sword stick specifically as the weapon used to smash through Martha’s breastbone and pierce her heart.

                        Poll’s claim to have been struck with a stick by her corporal has always seemed to me to be somewhat at odds with her statement that they parted on good terms. I suppose they could have made up after an initial bit of a barney over money - assuming the soldier existed in the first place. If he was a fiction, though, what might have been the purpose of that particular embellishment to the story? I’ve wondered whether she exhibited the signs of such a blow and felt the need to explain them away.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          The weapon Fogarty used on Millicent Fox was described as a ‘heavy’ stick. A sword stick would perhaps not be long or stout enough for blind man to use as a walking aid, and perhaps be a bit fiddly for him to use as a weapon. And I don’t see why we should favour a sword stick specifically as the weapon used to smash through Martha’s breastbone and pierce her heart.

                          Poll’s claim to have been struck with a stick by her corporal has always seemed to me to be somewhat at odds with her statement that they parted on good terms. I suppose they could have made up after an initial bit of a barney over money - assuming the soldier existed in the first place. If he was a fiction, though, what might have been the purpose of that particular embellishment to the story? I’ve wondered whether she exhibited the signs of such a blow and felt the need to explain them away.
                          I don't believe the soldier existed. Which, I'm to understand, is the crux of your story. Poll added details to her story as she went. As for a sword stick, it fits better than a bayonet with the heart wound, would be larger and more unwieldy than a pen knife, which might explain why the killer initially chose a pen knife, but upon finding that he couldn't pierce the breastplate, switched to a better tool for the job. This might also have been a dagger, but I propose that if he had two hand knives he would have used only the more sturdy of the two the entire time.

                          Shortly after the murder of Tabram, George Sims, who we know had extensive police contacts, wrote and published a murder story where the victim was killed with a sword stick. Might be coincidence, might not be.

                          The knife end of a good sword stick would not be too sturdy, as you say, but the other end would be solid.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • I think the suggestion of a dagger or bayonet was made because they can inflict a deeper wound than a penknife and because they are heavier and can inflict a wound through bone. A sword stick is not a weapon that could easily be used to smash through bone - I should think.

                            I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

                            The stick used to hit Poll was probably a light walking out stick or swagger stick. Maybe it was playful.

                            Anna
                            Chris is a good musician and a keen 'Ripperologist'.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                              I don't believe the soldier existed. Which, I'm to understand, is the crux of your story. Poll added details to her story as she went. As for a sword stick, it fits better than a bayonet with the heart wound, would be larger and more unwieldy than a pen knife, which might explain why the killer initially chose a pen knife, but upon finding that he couldn't pierce the breastplate, switched to a better tool for the job. This might also have been a dagger, but I propose that if he had two hand knives he would have used only the more sturdy of the two the entire time.

                              Shortly after the murder of Tabram, George Sims, who we know had extensive police contacts, wrote and published a murder story where the victim was killed with a sword stick. Might be coincidence, might not be.

                              The knife end of a good sword stick would not be too sturdy, as you say, but the other end would be solid.

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott
                              If you search press reports of actual swordstick attacks in 1887/8 you’ll find plenty of potential inspiration for Sims’ story. The Bloomsbury Mystery, which I believe is the one you are talking, was published in mid-August, 1888, wasn’t it? Do you suspect Sims got the inside info from Martha’s killers and rushed off a short story to mark the event? A story that was published just a week after Tabram’s death? He must have burned the midnight oil to meet that deadline.

                              The idea that considering a man who had form for knocking women down and stabbing them as a suspect in the Tabram case is somehow weirder than considering the Sims story was inspired by secret knowledge of the weapon used to kill Martha is quite astonishing.

                              I doubt the case of a swordstick would’ve lasted long in the hands of someone like Fogarty.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                                I think the suggestion of a dagger or bayonet was made because they can inflict a deeper wound than a penknife and because they are heavier and can inflict a wound through bone. A sword stick is not a weapon that could easily be used to smash through bone - I should think.

                                I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

                                The stick used to hit Poll was probably a light walking out stick or swagger stick. Maybe it was playful.

                                Anna
                                Chris is a good musician and a keen 'Ripperologist'.
                                If the press reports are to be believed, it was the length and strength of the weapon used to inflict the wound through the breastbone that led Killeen to posit ‘some kind of dagger’.

                                I wonder how clean a wound that smashed through the breast bone into the heart would be. Rather messy I would have thought.

                                Comment

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