Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Thomas Fogarty

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I don't see why the story HAS to turn on soldiers or men looking like soldiers. Poll and Martha split up so who knows all what Martha did until she was killed? If she knew Poll she may have known Foggy. She could have been in his company, or the company of other men, after her stroll with the soldier. If there was a soldier.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
      ... considering a man who had form for knocking women down and stabbing them as a suspect in the Tabram case ...
      Hi Gary, who did Tom Fogarty knock down and/or who did he stab? He didn't knock down or stab Milicent Fox according to the clip below. (thank you) It said he had convictions for other assaults. Have you found those, and if so, who if any got knocked down or stabbed by Fog?

      Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

      A VICIOUS BLIND BEGGAR - Thomas Foggerty, a blind man, who has many times been convicted of assaults, begging and committing malicious damage was charged with assaulting Millicent S. Fox, a girl of fourteen. On Tuesday afternoon, as the prosecutrix was passing the brewery in the Commercial Road, the prisoner, without provocation, dealt her a violent blow on the leg with a heavy stick, and when a constable took Foggerty into custody, he said, “If I could get the stick, I would give you one the same. I had better be in prison than outside.” Mr Cluer sentenced him to one month’s imprisonment with hard labour.


      Illustrated Police News, 11th June, 1898.
      In any case Gary, this is all very interesting. Echoing the new forum member a dozen pages back I too request you compose a Ripperologist magazine article. Again, best wishes,

      Roy
      Last edited by Roy Corduroy; September 18, 2019, 04:22 PM. Reason: I deleted the article about the Spitalfields blind man, we don't know who he is. Keep it simple I always say

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
        I think the suggestion of a dagger or bayonet was made because they can inflict a deeper wound than a penknife and because they are heavier and can inflict a wound through bone. A sword stick is not a weapon that could easily be used to smash through bone - I should think.

        I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.

        The stick used to hit Poll was probably a light walking out stick or swagger stick. Maybe it was playful.

        Anna
        Chris is a good musician and a keen 'Ripperologist'.
        Ed,

        Are you saying you think a policeman saw a soldier with Tabram and that he and Poll identified the same soldier? I suggest you re-read Bank Holiday Murders before composing the Tabram section of your upcoming book. There were indeed soldiers, but they were not seen with Tabram. They were seen with a woman who was mistaken to be Tabram. Tabram, supposedly parading through Whitechapel with Poll and two young soldiers, was remarkably not seen by another living soul. The soldiers were never identified, and the police did not believe her story.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          If the press reports are to be believed, it was the length and strength of the weapon used to inflict the wound through the breastbone that led Killeen to posit ‘some kind of dagger’.

          I wonder how clean a wound that smashed through the breast bone into the heart would be. Rather messy I would have thought.
          It would be rather clean I would think because the bone wouldn't allow for much 'wiggling'. A stiletto stick is a dagger on a stick, basically.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

          P.S. Assuming Fogarty was Tabram's killer, is there any reason to suppose Pearly Poll wasn't in on it?

          Comment


          • Hi Ed,

            Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
            ... I believe the soldier did exist. The policeman saw him and like Poll he was unable to identify him. So Poll being unable to identify him is not exactly damning.
            Maybe the best way I've heard this put. Succinct and good.

            Roy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
              Hi Ed,



              Maybe the best way I've heard this put. Succinct and good.

              Roy
              Succinct, yes. Good, no. Ed's pulling our leg. The policeman saw A soldier. There was no doubt plenty to be seen. He did not see a soldier with Martha or with Pearly Poll. Reid recorded that he and his men looked and could find no one who saw the two women with the two soldiers. It shouldn't have been hard to find. He did however find someone who knew Martha well who saw her quite alone that night. No Poll, no soldiers.

              Ed saws Poll 'saw a soldier'. But that's not correct. She says she spent hours in the company of two soldiers. That's a long time. She could not identify them and in fact just picked out two soldiers at random.

              Reid tried to trip Poll up at the inquest and succeeded on a few levels. She alone was cautioned before giving evidence because it was understood that she was not telling the truth. Had he been able to determine Poll's actual whereabouts that night, he would have charged her.

              Here's succinct and good - Pearly Poll lied to the police and that was no secret at the time.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
                Hi Gary, who did Tom Fogarty knock down and/or who did he stab? He didn't knock down or stab Milicent Fox according to the clip below. (thank you) It said he had convictions for other assaults. Have you found those, and if so, who if any got knocked down or stabbed by Fog?



                In any case Gary, this is all very interesting. Echoing the new forum member a dozen pages back I too request you compose a Ripperologist magazine article. Again, best wishes,

                Roy
                Roy,

                It can’t have escaped your attention that I am considering the possibility that the blind Spitalfields laces seller with an ‘ungovernable temper’ who felled a woman with a blow and proceeded to stab her multiple times in September, 1888 might be one and the same as the ‘vicious’ blind laces seller named Thomas Fogarty who operated in Spitalfields and who reportedly had many convictions for assault, wilful damage etc.

                And that this person, who went on to marry Pearly Poll, who was apparently based alongside her in tiny NE Passage in 1888 and was like her an habitue of the STGITE workhouse and the Whitechapel infirmary, may well have been acquainted with her at the time of the Tabram killing.

                Who knows, perhaps there were two blind laces sellers operating in the area, one renowned for his viciousness and the other for his ungovernable temper.

                When I feel the time is appropriate, I will pull the various strands of the Fogarty story together, most likely as a timeline on here. Of course, I don’t feel I own the Fogarty story in any respect, so if anyone else wants to get their name in print with a piece on him in Ripperologist, they may fill their boots with my blessing.


                Gary

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                  It would be rather clean I would think because the bone wouldn't allow for much 'wiggling'. A stiletto stick is a dagger on a stick, basically.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  P.S. Assuming Fogarty was Tabram's killer, is there any reason to suppose Pearly Poll wasn't in on it?
                  But why a dagger on a stick in preference to a dagger? Nothing in the medical or witness evidence suggests that. The weapon was a long, strong weapon like a dagger. Killeen was a fairly young man, wasn’t he? I wonder how much experience he had of forensic investigation.

                  If Fogarty was the killer, then Poll may well have been in on it. Her poor performance as a witness can be explained away without her having been complicit in the crime, but I think her having been coerced into being so by a violent partner is slightly more credible.

                  The main problem I have with the soldier story being entirely fictional is that if Poll hadn’t spent the evening with Martha, she risked her lie being discovered if others came along with an alternative version of events. Then she really would have been outed as a liar.

                  Comment


                  • Has the police procedural aspect of Poll’s caution ever been commented on by one of our ex-police colleagues - Neil Bell for instance?

                    Couldn’t the point of the caution have been that Reid believed Poll’s evidence might have more value in a subsequent prosecution if it had been given under caution? There was the real chance that Poll might abscond again preventing the police from obtaining her evidence under caution in the future.

                    Comment


                    • Corduroy's are coming back into fashion I see.
                      You have to understand Roy that Gary takes it as read that every blind beggar story relates to Foggy.
                      Why, Foggy was even a witness to the shooting of George Cornell.

                      Tom, i didn't say Poll 'saw a soldier'. With misquotations like that you will soon be invited into the academe.

                      The point I was making, which I will make again, is that the copper saw a soldier and couldn't identify him later.
                      That Poll couldn't identify the soldiers she said she and Tabram were with is therefore no indication that she lied.
                      Reid was keen for Poll to testify despite her unreliability, which makes it abundantly obvious that he believed her story to be true. Given Poll's unreliability, occasioned by her apparent temperament, alochol issues and the poor state of her health, it is hardly surprising that Reid warned her.

                      There is a press report that said Tabram was seen in a pub with soldiers.

                      As Gary candidly agreed, if Poll made her story up on behalf of someone else, she could have been proved a liar by someone who was with Tabram that night. That would make using Poll as a false witness to get the real killer off the hook a very risky undertaking as she could lead the investigation to the culprit.

                      Having said that perhaps I should concoct a story that Lechmere knew Pearly Poll... these leaps of faith and departures into the world of fiction are all the rage now.

                      But... a stiletto stick isn't basically a dagger on a stick. A wound ftom a sword stick would be very different to that from a dagger or handheld bayonet.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                        Corduroy's are coming back into fashion I see.
                        You have to understand Roy that Gary takes it as read that every blind beggar story relates to Foggy.
                        Why, Foggy was even a witness to the shooting of George Cornell.

                        Tom, i didn't say Poll 'saw a soldier'. With misquotations like that you will soon be invited into the academe.

                        The point I was making, which I will make again, is that the copper saw a soldier and couldn't identify him later.
                        That Poll couldn't identify the soldiers she said she and Tabram were with is therefore no indication that she lied.
                        Reid was keen for Poll to testify despite her unreliability, which makes it abundantly obvious that he believed her story to be true. Given Poll's unreliability, occasioned by her apparent temperament, alochol issues and the poor state of her health, it is hardly surprising that Reid warned her.

                        There is a press report that said Tabram was seen in a pub with soldiers.

                        As Gary candidly agreed, if Poll made her story up on behalf of someone else, she could have been proved a liar by someone who was with Tabram that night. That would make using Poll as a false witness to get the real killer off the hook a very risky undertaking as she could lead the investigation to the culprit.

                        Having said that perhaps I should concoct a story that Lechmere knew Pearly Poll... these leaps of faith and departures into the world of fiction are all the rage now.

                        But... a stiletto stick isn't basically a dagger on a stick. A wound ftom a sword stick would be very different to that from a dagger or handheld bayonet.
                        A smart pair of Levi cords and a pair of ox blood DM’s were all the rage when I were a lad.

                        Roy is sensible enough to see through the exaggerations of those with rival theories, especially those who would give their eye teeth for their suspect(s) to have even a whiff of serious violence proved against them. Of course I don’t imagine every blind beggar who got into bother with old Bill was Thomas Fogarty. It won’t surprise anyone to learn that I have searched high and low for such men without finding too many operating at the right time and in the right place.

                        The Wandsworth prison registers are somewhat inconsistent in respect of Fogarty’s previous convictions. One entry says as many as twelve. From what I know we have:

                        2 spells in Coldbath Fields for theft when a teenager.

                        Several spells in the glasshouse after Courts Martial while in the army culminating in a five year sentence in India which was largely spent in three English prisons.

                        At least five spells in Wandsworth which does not include the sentence for the assault on Millicent Fox or, if it was him, the Spitalfields assault. Neither does it include the conviction for putting his fist through a plate glass window and then looking for a copper to arrest him.

                        Finally we have his eventual confinement in the Claybury and Hellingly lunatic asylums where he was occasionally ‘excitable’ and ‘interfered with the other patients’. When he was admitted to Claybury he was initially recorded as being chargeable to Wandsworth before that was crossed out and replaced with STGITE, which suggests to me there may have been another spell in Wandsworth prison that I haven’t been able to find.

                        Not every blind East End laces seller was Tommy Fogarty, but I’d be very surprised if the Spitalfields attacker wasn’t one with a very similar history.

                        Interesting that you should mention Cornell. I bet if all you knew about his murderer was that he was a twin with an ungovernable temper who had once been a boxer you’d be able to have a reasonable stab at his name. Unless of course you had Cornell on your list of Lechmere victims.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          But why a dagger on a stick in preference to a dagger? Nothing in the medical or witness evidence suggests that. The weapon was a long, strong weapon like a dagger. Killeen was a fairly young man, wasn’t he? I wonder how much experience he had of forensic investigation.

                          If Fogarty was the killer, then Poll may well have been in on it. Her poor performance as a witness can be explained away without her having been complicit in the crime, but I think her having been coerced into being so by a violent partner is slightly more credible.

                          The main problem I have with the soldier story being entirely fictional is that if Poll hadn’t spent the evening with Martha, she risked her lie being discovered if others came along with an alternative version of events. Then she really would have been outed as a liar.
                          Regarding the sword stick, keep in mind that while you're ONLY considering evidence from the Tabram murder, I am not. Since I've written a book connecting a number of crimes together, I'm considering all that evidence together. And a sword stick came up again and again. It's not a fancy of my own making.

                          Regarding Poll lying about the soldiers, there's far more evidence supporting that than supporting the truth of it. The lack of witnesses, for instance. As for her actual whereabouts, she was probably not out and about herself, but in bed. Could someone have outed her? Possibly. But if her story was true, dozens...or at least a few...objective witnesses would have confirmed her story. She might also have bothered to pick out the correct soldiers. She might also have not felt it necessary to change the time of her and Martha's activities only AFTER a legit witness gave evidence of seeing Martha alone.

                          I would put forth that in order to believe any element of her soldier story, there must be at least a modicum of supportive evidence. There is none. I would also suggest that if the investigating officer, Reid, came to disbelieve her and abandon the soldier theory, then so should we. We should have done so generations ago. But modern authors have ingrained it in our heads that Pearly Poll actually was a good friend of Martha Tabram and that they actually did spend hours with two soldiers. The repetition of modern authors who, truth be told, spent very little time considering Tabram, does not make any of it true.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                            Has the police procedural aspect of Poll’s caution ever been commented on by one of our ex-police colleagues - Neil Bell for instance?

                            Couldn’t the point of the caution have been that Reid believed Poll’s evidence might have more value in a subsequent prosecution if it had been given under caution? There was the real chance that Poll might abscond again preventing the police from obtaining her evidence under caution in the future.
                            I write a lot about this in BHM and will let this stand. Neil Bell read the manuscript of BHM prior to publication and suggested some changes, which I made. My handling of the inquest was not one of those changes.

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                              Corduroy's are coming back into fashion I see.
                              You have to understand Roy that Gary takes it as read that every blind beggar story relates to Foggy.
                              Why, Foggy was even a witness to the shooting of George Cornell.

                              Tom, i didn't say Poll 'saw a soldier'. With misquotations like that you will soon be invited into the academe.

                              The point I was making, which I will make again, is that the copper saw a soldier and couldn't identify him later.
                              That Poll couldn't identify the soldiers she said she and Tabram were with is therefore no indication that she lied.
                              Reid was keen for Poll to testify despite her unreliability, which makes it abundantly obvious that he believed her story to be true. Given Poll's unreliability, occasioned by her apparent temperament, alochol issues and the poor state of her health, it is hardly surprising that Reid warned her.

                              There is a press report that said Tabram was seen in a pub with soldiers.

                              As Gary candidly agreed, if Poll made her story up on behalf of someone else, she could have been proved a liar by someone who was with Tabram that night. That would make using Poll as a false witness to get the real killer off the hook a very risky undertaking as she could lead the investigation to the culprit.

                              Having said that perhaps I should concoct a story that Lechmere knew Pearly Poll... these leaps of faith and departures into the world of fiction are all the rage now.

                              But... a stiletto stick isn't basically a dagger on a stick. A wound ftom a sword stick would be very different to that from a dagger or handheld bayonet.
                              Ed, you're correct, I misquoted you. I've got a cold right and probably shouldn't be replying to anything, but I'm stubborn. Having said that, you're taking the piss, I know you are. The press report from the Times which puts Tabram in a bar with soldiers was - as you know - subsequently shown to be about a totally different woman. But Poll didn't know that at the time, so she used that press story as the basis for her fabricated tale.

                              As for Tabram witnesses coming forward, one did! She gave her evidence at the inquest. Since Tabram was apparently soliciting, I'm not at all surprised that her clients that evening did not come forward. Are you?

                              Bottom line is there is evidence that refutes Poll's story. There is zero evidence that corroborates it. More to the point, the officer who saw a soldier tried to identify the soldier and failed. It's said Poll intentionally picked out two officers at random. Very different.

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott

                              Comment


                              • How common would uniformed or otherwise identifiable soldiers or sailors have been in the area? In other JtR cases witnesses said men "had the appearance of a sailor". True, a policeman identified a soldier on the street before Martha was killed but as I recall, actual soldiers, identified as such, only turn up in this one case in records of the 1888 murders.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X