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  • #16
    By two ladies, do you mean the two alleged prostitutes? I take it they aren’t Mary Kelly and Catherine Eddowes.

    Are we saying PAV might have been legitimately blackmailed?

    My points are that rumours might have a basis in fact especially long-standing rumour that becomes folklore. You don’t need a lot of persuasion to believe an unknown killer is connected to something when the case goes unsolved for a long time or has loose ends, and rightly so. That's why the Warren Commission tried to get the Kennedy Assassination "proven" quickly.

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    • #17
      Hi San Fran.


      The two ladies were not prostitutes, they were actresses; both appeared on stage in London and on tour. The events surrounding them took place in or about 1891, so there is no ripper connection. However suggestions of conspiracy can be found in the case of one of the women involved.


      In the case of the other lady there is a strong suggestion of blackmail, of either PAV or his father the Prince of Wales.


      The trouble with rumours and conspiracy theories is that they tend to feed off each other, and before long it is hard to tell what is truth and what is fiction. We can only search out what facts are left to us and then try to work out what might have happened.


      Rgds
      John

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      • #18
        Thanks for the information. These look like legitimate actresses and not ones that are synonymous with prostitutes.

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        • #19
          San Fran: You have worked the angle of Mary having royal connections. I have something to share but no longer have a source. Even when I first joined the Forum I used a tiny phone with a little slide out keyboard and I had NO idea how computers should work. I only improve when the need arises. Thus I had no idea how to bookmark, clip, download, etc.

          As I recall=>There was a Mary Kelly somewhere in Wales who was married to a businessman, like an innkeeper or pub owner, presumably also named Kelly. This Mary Kelly had a drinking problem and she and her husband separated and that was the last report about Mary. One member of the family had a close connection to the Swedish royal family, maybe even married in at some low level.

          I used to be able to backtrack the story but am not sure I can now. I think the best way to work back is to search a Swedish royal connection with Wales.

          Caveat=> I believe my research was accurate but I did some very faulty internet research in those days. I would get kind of mesmerized by asking questions and getting answers and if the answers suited my purposes I did not bother to qualify the knowledge with pesky little things like dates. Still, I think this story was packaged all together, there was not much other material on the subject, no contradictions and the dates were appropriate.

          I figured other researchers would have found this because it looked so good but I have never seen it mentioned anywhere.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
            I have something to share but no longer have a source.
            As I recall=>There was a Mary Kelly somewhere in Wales who was married to a businessman, like an innkeeper or pub owner, presumably also named Kelly. This Mary Kelly had a drinking problem and she and her husband separated and that was the last report about Mary. One member of the family had a close connection to the Swedish royal family, maybe even married in at some low level.
            I found a recent Welsh factory girl who became a Swedish princess. It goes to show you that anything is possible.

            Mary said she came from Carnarvon or Carmarthen. I always do searches with unusual search terms so I can reduce my number of hits and maybe get something worthwhile. I thereby found the Earl of Carnarvon and thought of that as a possible source for an invented childhood hometown.

            But all the links I found were from the 20th century. Even the investiture of the Prince of Wales in Carnarvon Castle was in 1911.

            Again, I like Spiro have not conclusively found the original original source of the Royal Conspiracy theory except maybe Gull's records being misinterpreted and the story of the psychic's visit with the police. Maybe the psychic saw something in the Carnarvon extended family which Gull's daughter was part of, only tangentially related to the Ripper.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by San Fran View Post
              I found a recent Welsh factory girl who became a Swedish princess. It goes to show you that anything is possible.

              Mary said she came from Carnarvon or Carmarthen. I always do searches with unusual search terms so I can reduce my number of hits and maybe get something worthwhile. I thereby found the Earl of Carnarvon and thought of that as a possible source for an invented childhood hometown.

              But all the links I found were from the 20th century. Even the investiture of the Prince of Wales in Carnarvon Castle was in 1911.

              I have now come across a link between Rosalie Ochse and the Earls of Carnarvon through the "Secret Jewish Connection" to Highclere Castle. It's pretty straight forward. I'll maybe post it later but here's a link the the Jewish Connection.

              https://nationalpost.com/entertainme...ish-connection

              Again, I like Spiro have not conclusively found the original original source of the Royal Conspiracy theory except maybe Gull's records being misinterpreted and the story of the psychic's visit with the police. Maybe the psychic saw something in the Carnarvon extended family which Gull's daughter was part of, only tangentially related to the Ripper.
              THAT'S IT!!!! The Welsh girl became a Swedish princess! (I am not sure princess in Sweden is as powerful a title as it is in England. I am thinking the Swedish system is a little like the Russian where grand duchess is more important.)

              There is a Mary Kelly in the story. She drank too much and separated from her husband for parts unknown.

              I wondered if that was why MJK's deceased husband was never found, if Mary had a living husband who would rather forget and not call attention to himself.

              I never brought this up here because I think I found it before I was a member and because the MJK/royal connections never made sense to me. As a new member I didn't want to propose something that on the surface is outlandish. I was interested in the Mary Kelly who separated from her husband because that could answer a lot of questions.

              Gary's work has done a lot to better define Mary at least in my mind. I feel we have a good base to use in understanding the actual woman. I will work from that base in future research. MJK COULD have done all sorts of things but down deep I think she fit in the East End and was able to earn her living near the docks.

              On another thread it was wondered if Mary had gone to Catholic school. I have thought about that before. Maybe a few years in parochial school developed some talents and led to manners that were a bit above her station. Maybe her East End female friends had not had exposure to the schools or products from the schools.

              I also still think Mary may have been sincerely attached to the Catholic faith. I wonder if she and Joe had attended mass on the Good Friday when they met. If someone attended church infrequently, Good Friday would be a good choice for the occasional attendance. However it does not seem that they went to Easter mass. On the other hand, Good Friday is still about penance, churches may be poorly lighted in remembrance of the tomb and the poor might feel more comfortable then than when people might dress better on Easter Sunday. However that was, Joe and Mary wasted no time afterward in plotting the sin of living together without marriage.
              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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              • #22
                I agree, Anna, that a separation from her husband would explain a lot of things.

                MJW’s husband was still alive.

                The fact that MJW was related and probably descended from Stewart royalty also checks the Catholic box and the desire to educate and refine herself to fit in with higher society.

                Her brother married “well” and ended up with all the high class connections to Rosalie’s family.

                Something like an upper class link would explain MJK saying she was disowned by her family. Would a family of common folk disown Mary? Only the higher classes and the super religious.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                  I agree, Anna, that a separation from her husband would explain a lot of things.

                  MJW’s husband was still alive.

                  The fact that MJW was related and probably descended from Stewart royalty also checks the Catholic box and the desire to educate and refine herself to fit in with higher society.

                  Her brother married “well” and ended up with all the high class connections to Rosalie’s family.

                  Something like an upper class link would explain MJK saying she was disowned by her family. Would a family of common folk disown Mary? Only the higher classes and the super religious.
                  I think we have to be very careful about accepting a lot of Mary's supposed background.

                  But to the point, devout Roman Catholic peasants might reject a girl who became a prostitute. Deeply religious protestants might be even more judgmental.

                  On the other hand, Mary could have been rejected by her family for a number of reasons including strife within the family. The large, extended Halket Street Kellies appeared to have some tragedies in their family which could have led to splits and acrimony. It appears a bunch of those kids were in an industrial school or training school of some kind while the family reorganized.

                  I have commented before about women I have known who could not tell the truth. If their lips were moving, they were lying. I don't think Mary was like that but how do we sort out what she may have told others?

                  The last time I was really sick, back in December, I watched probably too many about Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia. She lived at a time when there was ID, Social Security numbers and better government records than there were in 1880s Britain. If not for that I wonder if we would know who she was.

                  I do not believe Beth was a prostitute--and I have an idea that her not putting out sexually led to her murder--but she dated a lot of men for dinners and small favours. Piecing together her background, as supposedly told by her, sounds an awful lot in some ways like MJK's story. There were a number of instances of Beth flirting with greatness through marriage, stardom or journalism.

                  The craziest thing which seems to be validated to a good extent is that Beth travelled from Massachusetts to Chicago by bus, to investigate a horrific murder of a child, while claiming to be a journalist. Aspects of that case seem to figure into some points about the murder of Elizabeth. The way I take it, Beth talked too much about her imaginary journalistic adventure in Chicago, a man got tired of listening to her inflated claims, was enraged that she flashed a tattoo on her thigh and did not follow through with sex, and he committed an unspeakable crime. IMO.

                  Except for the prostitution career, I could imagine Beth Short in 1880s London telling just the stories Mary supposedly told.
                  The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                  • #24
                    I agree that you don’t accept anything that isn’t corroborated. The story of being disowned is corroborated by the family not showing up.

                    Having well off relatives is corroborated somewhat by her landing in the West End. Whether they’re in laws or blood relatives, it doesn’t matter.

                    If Elizabeth Short was unknown and someone said she knew Marilyn Monroe, people would scoff. They dined together.

                    It’s a good bet that even Short had some Royal Ancestry. But people have a certain perception of female victims like Short that would automatically rule that out.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by San Fran View Post
                      It’s a good bet that even Short had some Royal Ancestry. But people have a certain perception of female victims like Short that would automatically rule that out.
                      A short search of Elizabeth Short’s Geni family tree turns up her grandmother’s other husband was descended from the second Lord Dudley. I traced her grandma because she had the American Royal Name - Brown.

                      https://www.geni.com/people/Phoebe-S...00002897288020

                      https://www.geni.com/people/Joyce-Le...00019883181291

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                      • #26
                        Lots of people have royal blood. There were lots of royals throughout history, additionaly they had many love affairs. It also depends on what constitutes royalty. Going back to the middle ages and the feudal systems, a number of people received titles for services to the crown and they began their own bloodlines.

                        I, a small town girl, married a man with royal blood and possibly eligible for a title. You get several generations out from the title and it gets murky. There is no reason than any of the C-5 could not have had royal blood.

                        Just as governments around the world now are top heavy with bureaucrats, many monarchies expanded and expanded until there were many people related directly to the crown.
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                        • #27
                          Indeed many people do have royal blood. An actor in the soap 'Eastenders', Danny Dyer, recently discovered that one of his ancestors was King Edward III and is now doing a series on his royal relations. He always thought of himself as working class, some of his more recent relatives in the LVP ended up in the workhouse.

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                          • #28
                            To be honest and fair, we need to reassess our perception of female victims like Mary Kelly or the Black Dahlia, and specifically sex trade workers. Especially if it affects our assessment of someone who targets them for murder. And EVEN IF it affects the communication of our theory by creating confusion about labeling. If it helps changed the perception of the Perpetrator (as a low class guy), then I'll change my own perception of the Victim. So.....

                            Can we really say there's a class difference between prostitutes and their high class clientele? Aren't the prostitutes high class call girls themselves? And don't all prostitutes seek to serve men of high class and pay?

                            They are certainly not there to service low paid workers if they can help it and they certainly can help themselves by being in the low class neighborhoods that offer white-collar men anonymity if they are out in public.

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                            • #29
                              I am not sure class has so much to do with killers & female victims. I see it more as predator and prey, the women are the prey. Animal and bird predators look for a sight pattern. If they see that pattern they attack. I think it is the same with predatory killers and rapists.

                              Prostitutes are available to go with men who are not husbands or family members. In times past, in many cultures, this indicated a woman had loose morals. We don't really have a class system in the U.S. but we still have killers who prey on prostitutes and other women. Ted Bundy's sight pattern was set for college girls or girls that more or less fit that design.

                              As for Elizabeth Short, Black Dahlia, personally I think profiles of her killer(s) miss the mark. Many say she was NOT a prostitute but that she went out with a lot of men, stretching her budget by "dating for dinner." One of the police officers investigating her murder at the time made a rather harsh statement that Beth was a cruel tease, that she encouraged men but would not put out. (have sex)

                              Back then one telling detail of her case was kept secret by the police though it is known now. She had a tattoo of a rose high up on the inside of her, I think left, thigh. It was said she sat with her legs crossed in such a way that the tattoo was visible.

                              My mother was practically her contemporary in age and location. I believe I can say that a woman who had any tattoo, worse yet, a tattoo on a part of the leg a moral woman of the time may only have exposed in a swimsuit, shorts or tennis dress, who displayed that tattoo in bars and other gathering places, was sending a wrong message unless she had loose morals. Sure that is sexist but so were the times.

                              That rose tattoo was cut from her thigh and found inserted in her vagina. IMO some sadistic, murderous weirdo thought Beth owed him sex, he didn't get it, thought she had teased him and his payback was inserting the false advertising in the area he felt she owed him. (I don't see how that particular act works out with the theory of a Dr. Hodel creating a work of art to share with other surrealists. To me it is the work of a super creepy, perverted, sadistic, dangerous killer badly in need of anger management classes. His message to the world was, this woman was a tease and she got what was coming to her, IMO.)
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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