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  • Which Suspects Were Hunters?

    Now that we can reasonably deduce that the Whitechapel Murderer was running around in a deerstalker hat on the night of the double event, I was wondering which suspects were actual hunters. Who hunted deer, fox, fowl, etc.?

    This thread is not for debating the deerstalker. PC Smith said deerstalker and that was 15 minutes before the murder. I'm sure there are those who believe Liz finished with him and found another client in 15 minutes, or believe Schwartz. But then Lawende said "peaked cloth cap", which is an obvious differentiation from a regular "flat cap" or a true sailors hat which, to me, doesn't have a true peak like a deerstalker. A "sporting" cap perhaps? The transition to flat caps and peaked caps was late 1800s though, and surely recognizable as such regardless. Deerstalkers, however....

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=NS2...torian&f=false

  • #2
    San :

    In London, most people who hunted were from the West End...people who could afford excursions to the country or woods. As to suspects, I can't think of any who were hunters.

    Maybe someone else knows of one.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by San Fran View Post
      Now that we can reasonably deduce that the Whitechapel Murderer was running around in a deerstalker hat on the night of the double event, I was wondering which suspects were actual hunters. Who hunted deer, fox, fowl, etc.?

      This thread is not for debating the deerstalker. PC Smith said deerstalker and that was 15 minutes before the murder. I'm sure there are those who believe Liz finished with him and found another client in 15 minutes, or believe Schwartz. But then Lawende said "peaked cloth cap", which is an obvious differentiation from a regular "flat cap" or a true sailors hat which, to me, doesn't have a true peak like a deerstalker. A "sporting" cap perhaps? The transition to flat caps and peaked caps was late 1800s though, and surely recognizable as such regardless. Deerstalkers, however....

      https://books.google.ca/books?id=NS2...torian&f=false
      Hello San Fran

      You begin with a categorical statement that it's reasonable to deduce that the Whitechapel Murderer was wearing a deerstalker on the night of the Double Event. I don't think that fact is in any way "established" so certainly your claim that the killer wore a deerstalker can be debated. The other thing to say is that you don't have to be a hunter to wear a deerstalker.

      Cheers

      Chris
      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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      • #4
        Hello Chris,

        Are you questioning PC Smith's informed ID of the deerstalker or that "deerstalker" was Liz's last trick and was therefore her murderer, or that he was therefore JtR?

        I might entertain the idea that PC Smith was wrong. But I have to give him the benefit of the doubt especially when the "uninformed" locals gave descriptions that could be said to match.

        At least my categorical statement was qualified with "reasonable". But I certainly don't see any point in endlessly debating the witness evidence. I see no reasonable reason why not to pursue this line of investigation. Do you? Who knows? Maybe the deerstalker also became a non-hunter's fashionable headgear like the flat cap became favored of the working class, and painter hats used by non-painters.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
          In London, most people who hunted were from the West End...people who could afford excursions to the country or woods. As to suspects, I can't think of any who were hunters.
          Exactly, Howard, and any West Ender or well-off business type who hunted might be just as adept at butchering as any local slaughterer.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by San Fran View Post
            Hello Chris,

            Are you questioning PC Smith's informed ID of the deerstalker or that "deerstalker" was Liz's last trick and was therefore her murderer, or that he was therefore JtR?

            I might entertain the idea that PC Smith was wrong. But I have to give him the benefit of the doubt especially when the "uninformed" locals gave descriptions that could be said to match.

            At least my categorical statement was qualified with "reasonable". But I certainly don't see any point in endlessly debating the witness evidence. I see no reasonable reason why not to pursue this line of investigation. Do you? Who knows? Maybe the deerstalker also became a non-hunter's fashionable headgear like the flat cap became favored of the working class, and painter hats used by non-painters.
            The deerstalker was very much worn by non ‘hunters’. Upper class shooters/stalkers (‘hunting’ generally refers to chasing prey on horseback with a pack of hounds) would be unlikely to wear such an article of headgear in town.

            The last landlord of the Old Red Lion in Breezers Hill/ Pennington Street had a licence to kill game in the 1870s.








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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

              The deerstalker was very much worn by non ‘hunters’. Upper class shooters/stalkers (‘hunting’ generally refers to chasing prey on horseback with a pack of hounds) would be unlikely to wear such an article of headgear in town.

              The last landlord of the Old Red Lion in Breezers Hill/ Pennington Street held a game licence in the 1870s.

              I should add that Stephen Maywood, the brothel-keeper of 1, Breezer’s Hill, was familiar with guns and shooting.


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              • #8
                36FEC27B-E15E-4D21-83C9-88B1CED9C324.jpeg

                A couple of examples of absentee husbands from the Poor Law Union’s Gazette (1889 - St Olave’s, Southwark) one a waterside labourer and the other a tinplate worker.

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                • #9
                  Live and learn....thanks Gary, once again !
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                  • #10
                    Deer stalking, which took place mainly on Scottish estates, was a rich man’s sport. I would have thought that most of the gralloching (disembowelling) that went on was carried out by ghillies rather than the toffs themselves. I’m sure there were some though who were more hands on than others.

                    But would such people have worn deerstalker hats in town?

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                    • #11
                      Didn’t I see an image of Prince Eddy in a deerstalker?

                      I’m sure most people wouldn’t be adventurous enough to wear it in town unless you’re outside in October for hours and it serves practicality.

                      But I’ll admit that it would serve practicality for a local, as well, who happens to have one because he “apes” the sporting classes, as they say. It would be no different than a baseball cap in that case.

                      But why think it’s someone imitating a sporting class, and not a participant when there are commonalities in MO?

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                      • #12
                        24409A31-8732-4DC6-A9D6-12505C12E4C6.jpeg [

                        QUOTE=San Fran;n576319]Didn’t I see an image of Prince Eddy in a deerstalker?

                        I’m sure most people wouldn’t be adventurous enough to wear it in town unless you’re outside in October for hours and it serves practicality.

                        But I’ll admit that it would serve practicality for a local, as well, who happens to have one because he “apes” the sporting classes, as they say. It would be no different than a baseball cap in that case.

                        But why think it’s someone imitating a sporting class, and not a participant when there are commonalities in MO?

                        [/QUOTE]

                        If a victim was bludgeoned to death and a witness saw someone with a baseball cap nearby, would we assume the killer was a professional baseball player?

                        The deerstalker was worn by people of all classes, occupations etc. I read a report yesterday complaining how army volunteers often wore a mixture of civilian clothes and army uniform. The wearing of deerstalkers was a particular bugbear. Also the authorities at the Bank of England had to issue instructions to their clerks not to wear deerstalkers in the bank. They were worn by a wide cross section of society. Including a few butchers and slaughtermen, I would imagine.

                        Not sure what you mean commonalities in MO. I think you’ll find it was usually the gillie who performed the messy business of gralloching.

                        And a final point is that it’s by no means clear what was meant by the term ‘deerstalker’. Hats of varying styles including fashionable female ones went by that name.

                        The hats above, worn by City of London Volunteers during the Boer war, were called deerstalkers.








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                        • #13
                          34BD98A7-8018-426D-8B04-83F6956E77E8.jpeg


                          Lady’s deerstalker.

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                          • #14
                            didnt mrs long also describe the man with chapman as wearing a dearstalker?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              didnt mrs long also describe the man with chapman as wearing a dearstalker?
                              It appears so, Abby. I might have to change my timeline for that murder from Dr. Phillips'.

                              jack_the_ripper_deerstalker_hat.jpg
                              https://whitechapeljack.com/the-whit...ka-dark-annie/

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