Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Polish Jew

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Polish Jew

    In view of the debate on the 'Kozminski' suspect being more focused on the thread where it is being currently addressed, I thought that it would be nice to have a 'general' Polish Jew suspect thread in order to consider the options that exist in regard to this amorphous suspect.

    This takes us on to the two leading modern theories on this suspect. First there is Martin Fido's 1987 thinking which argues for a confusion over the names thus meaning that the name of the Polish Jew suspect was not Kos[z]minski at all. This is countered by the more conventional thinking of Paul Begg and presented in his 1988 book which essentially argues that, unlikely or not, Aaron Kosminski was the 'Kosminski' of Macnaghten's memorandum, and was also Anderson's Polish Jew suspect.

    Here we have two able proponents of the Polish Jew theory and they have written much about this aspect of Ripperological theorising. Martin must be recognised for his pioneering 1987 research that led to the identification of Aaron Kosminski and Paul's seminal 1988 book gave us a detailed look at all the facts (and some theorising) involved in this area. Paul also analysed the 'Swanson marginalia' for the first time.

    It cannot be denied that this suspect is an important one, it is historically based and was introduced by the two top C.I.D. officers of the day - Anderson and Macnaghten, and later endorsed by Swanson in his 'marginalia'. It would be interesting to see the views of posters here as to where they stand on all this.

  • #2
    Hi Stewart,

    How fortuitous.

    I have just completed an article entitled "The Macnaghten Memorandum & Other Fictions" which I hope will soon be appearing in Ripperologist.

    Reserve your copy now to avoid disappointment, he plugged shamelessly.

    Regards,

    Simon

    Comment


    • #3
      I look forward to reading it, Simon.

      Hi Stewart, thanks for starting off this thread, and I have read your book SYI, your posts here and on Casebook, and your essay on Kosminski, which apparently you have moved past, and that's OK to do that. A consensus seems to have developed, that apparently, the ID as described by Swanson simply didn't happen. There was a failed attempt to ID Sadler, it seems.

      Martrin has to get credit for rolling up his sleeves and tackling this in a straightforward way. He found a man, Cohen, who sounds very like the suspect Mcnaghten described. Problem is his name is not Kosminski. I enjoyed the podcast with Martin, in which Howard took part. And yes, Paul's 1988 book is one of the very best. He is a skilled writer.

      Originally posted by SPE View Post
      It would be interesting to see the views of posters here as to where they stand on all this.
      I came to Ripper study by way of Van Onselen. His suspect, Joe Lis, was a very different man from either Kosminski or Cohen. A cunning individual who apparently took a boat to American in 1889. Considering that the author, although by indirect means, places his suspect 'bang in the heart of the district' along with Cohen and Kosminski, I find it hard not to wonder, if perhaps an insane man became a sort of fall guy in the eyes of the police.

      Roy

      Comment


      • #4
        Moved Past?

        Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
        I look forward to reading it, Simon.
        Hi Stewart, thanks for starting off this thread, and I have read your book SYI, your posts here and on Casebook, and your essay on Kosminski, which apparently you have moved past, and that's OK to do that. A consensus seems to have developed, that apparently, the ID as described by Swanson simply didn't happen. There was a failed attempt to ID Sadler, it seems.
        Martrin has to get credit for rolling up his sleeves and tackling this in a straightforward way. He found a man, Cohen, who sounds very like the suspect Mcnaghten described. Problem is his name is not Kosminski. I enjoyed the podcast with Martin, in which Howard took part. And yes, Paul's 1988 book is one of the very best. He is a skilled writer.
        I came to Ripper study by way of Van Onselen. His suspect, Joe Lis, was a very different man from either Kosminski or Cohen. A cunning individual who apparently took a boat to American in 1889. Considering that the author, although by indirect means, places his suspect 'bang in the heart of the district' along with Cohen and Kosminski, I find it hard not to wonder, if perhaps an insane man became a sort of fall guy in the eyes of the police.
        Roy

        Apparently moved past my 'essay on Kosminski' in SYI? Not at all, what makes you think that?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SPE View Post

          It cannot be denied that this suspect is an important one, it is historically based and was introduced by the two top C.I.D. officers of the day - Anderson and Macnaghten, and later endorsed by Swanson in his 'marginalia'. It would be interesting to see the views of posters here as to where they stand on all this.
          Hello Stewart

          Yes of course the suspect as a type is historically based. How much though is the suspect based on a type of racial profiling? That is, the idea that the sinister-looking Jewish working man with his leather apron and semitic features appeared threatening to white Gentile policemen or to white Gentile women, and to the English population in general?

          I think in discussing the Jewish question little enough consideration is given to the Jewish point of view and how the Eastern European Jews fitted into English society and were subject to certain attitudes and assumptions, to the detriment of the recently arrived immigrants.

          The immigrant question is something that the enlightened Anglo Jewish elite struggled with, as you know, but it's not something, I think, that the Metropolitan Police or City Police much addressed or about which they showed much appreciative sensitivity. I am not implying bigotry here, just more that the police of the day were not fully equipped to cope with the immigrant question.

          Best regards

          Chris
          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post

            I came to Ripper study by way of Van Onselen. His suspect, Joe Lis, was a very different man from either Kosminski or Cohen. A cunning individual who apparently took a boat to American in 1889. Considering that the author, although by indirect means, places his suspect 'bang in the heart of the district' along with Cohen and Kosminski, I find it hard not to wonder, if perhaps an insane man became a sort of fall guy in the eyes of the police.

            Roy
            Hello Roy

            As I stated yesterday at the London JtR Conference, I do believe the fatal flaw in the police investigation of 1888 is that they were looking for a lunatic. Look at the police writings on the case, and you will see such words as "maniac" which indicates that their overriding notion of who the killer must have been was that he was an unhinged individual, a person who had been in and out of asylums and who showed unbalanced behavior. These days we know that serial killers often don't display such traits, at least outwardly. It's probable that the killer slipped out of the police dragnet because he was a perfectly normal appearing person, a person quite likely that they would not have considered a suspect in the first place.

            Chris
            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

            Comment


            • #7
              One oddity is that those who believed that "Jack the Ripper is a Polish Jew" (i.e. a recently arrived or un-Anglicised Jew) took the murderer's nickname from a letter that a recently arrived Jew could not possibly have written. Even the name "Jack" suggests a Gentile. Anderson was consistent in rejecting the letter as a hoax, but I guess there was a lot of confused thinking around in those days.

              Comment


              • #8
                Robert:

                Within one ethnic community I personally work with, there is an enormous gap between the younger (18-25) and the slightly older ( 25-40) in terms of their lexicon...almost as if from a separate planet. I use the Laotian people as an example of how those born here are different to those born in Asia in several situations when the Jewish immigrant and assimilated issue comes up. I agree with you that its very unlikely that a recently arrived Jew or even ethnic German would have used "Jack" as a handle.

                Chris: Ironically, it was a Jew who helped perpetuate the theory of "type" in terms of what killers looked like with some sort of scientific basis. I refer to Lombroso. I think that its more likely that this "threat" that people mention...as you did...in terms of how Jewish or any foreign workers appeared to native born Brits was insignificant. I don't recall anyone ever being worried in a physical sense about Jews in general. I think the "fear" was economically based...much like it is today in America with some ethnic entities.

                I still have yet to see one anti-Semitic or anti-foreign "action" taken by the Police during the 10 weeks in 1888 mentioned...and yet a few references to the police being concerned with the safety of the immigrant community.

                Some Jews historically, and this might be a little upsetting, need anti-Semitism to maintain their cohesiveness...and have done quite well with it over the centuries...and yet...not one mention of an anti-Jewish roust, shakedown, or arrest based solely on ethnicity is found in the literature, particularly the literature authored by Jews. By now,one would have surfaced, yet none have.

                In fact, the literature that did emanate from assimilated Jews is not far off in terms of specific aspersions on immigrants and their tendencies from the literature found in the mainstream press written by Gentiles. Some of the stereotypes that are attributed unfairly or fairly to Jews of the period can be found in articles written by "enlightened" ( meaning affluent and those who are "passing" in Gentile society) Jewry in England.

                As with any flood of immigrants from foreign speaking lands, the onus or responsibility of fitting in is with the arrivistes...and not incumbent on the host. The working class Britons didn't send for the immigrants. If any assistance was to be given, it should have been the responsibility of those who opened the doors to the immigrants to provide it and not the native born citizenry...and maybe not even the assimilated Jews ( Pizer being one as an aside...).

                Roy:

                Whether or not Lis/Silver is or isn't the Ripper...one thing that separates him from the two Jews you mentioned is that he appears to be more of a psychopath ( and a ballsy momser at that...as with the scene in the African prison cell where he sodomizes the negro ) than a psychotic...such as Cohen or Hyams.


                To Join JTR Forums :
                Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Howard,

                  The Times, 30th July 1888

                  IMMIGRANTS.jpg

                  Regards,

                  Simon

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you Simon. Not sure how that indicates a police action against foreigners, but we'll leave that for another thread. I never saw this article and I appreciate it.
                    To Join JTR Forums :
                    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SPE View Post
                      Apparently moved past my 'essay on Kosminski' in SYI? Not at all, what makes you think that?
                      Hi Stewart,

                      I was referring to your 1998 essay Kosminski and the Seaside Home, in which you worked through the inconsistencies to show how it could have unfolded. I was observing that in your new book SYI and your recent discussions you have moved past that. After further consideration you feel that the ID Swanson described apparently didn't happen, and he may have juxtaposed the attempted Sadler ID onto Kosminski. If I understand you correctly.

                      Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

                      Roy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ...

                        "He deplored the fact that the East End was becoming Jewish. Said that Englishmen were rougher but the Jew more tricky, quoting Judge Montague Williams 'a Jew never tells the truth except by mistake.' Endless trouble caused by accusations and counteraccusations." etc. (B350, fol. 231).


                        Gambling and the Jewish community from Interview with Superintendent Louis Vedy
                        of the Y Police Division, Kentish Town, 2 December [1897]

                        ~~~
                        (*V*)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Speculative Piece

                          Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
                          Hi Stewart,
                          I was referring to your 1998 essay Kosminski and the Seaside Home, in which you worked through the inconsistencies to show how it could have unfolded. I was observing that in your new book SYI and your recent discussions you have moved past that. After further consideration you feel that the ID Swanson described apparently didn't happen, and he may have juxtaposed the attempted Sadler ID onto Kosminski. If I understand you correctly.
                          Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
                          Roy
                          Right, I'm with you now. The 1998 essay was actually written with certain provisos in mind. The information provided by the Swanson annotations is very limited and is not totally accurate. It is therefore subject to various interpretations that may or may not be correct. These include interpreting 'the Seaside Home' as the Police Seaside Convalescent Home at Hove and assumes that the 'Kosminski' mentioned is Aaron and not another, unknown, Kosminski. In short it is a speculative piece.

                          At the time of writing I did state that I was writing the essay under the proviso of adhering to the words of Anderson and Swanson whilst accepting them as being as accurate as possible and accepting them as totally honest and trustworthy. That said, the essay then followed but, as with any such speculative essay, it was a possible interpretation of the available information given the stated caveats. It was not supposed to represent my final thinking on the matter nor to be the only answer, indeed it was deliberately 'slanted' to favour both Anderson and Swanson.

                          It is a complex story and one to which we shall probably never know the full answer. It is up to the reader to internalise all available information, writing and debate on the subject and then to draw his own preferred conclusions.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SPE View Post
                            The information provided by the Swanson annotations is very limited and is not totally accurate. It is therefore subject to various interpretations that may or may not be correct. These include interpreting 'the Seaside Home' as the Police Seaside Convalescent Home at Hove and assumes that the 'Kosminski' mentioned is Aaron and not another, unknown, Kosminski. In short it is a speculative piece.
                            Yes I understood that, reading it. You were theorizing how it could have happened that way. I didn't see it as you were stating the gospel truth. It was a masterful piece of work, in any case.

                            McNaghten's sketch of Kosminski has obvious errors, too. As you say, it's up for the individual to assess it all. Everything you have written and posted these past few years has been very helpful, Stewart. Striving for clarity. Thank you.

                            As to the general topic, the Polish Jew, I think it's wrong to confuse anti-semitism with solid police work. The percent of Jewish population of the area was high, especially in the very heart of the district. It's only natural that police would focus on the people who lived there.

                            Roy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As to the general topic, the Polish Jew, I think it's wrong to confuse anti-semitism with solid police work- Roy

                              Exactly my feelings as well, Roy...

                              On the other hand, had the majority of people in the area been of French extraction, I don't think there would have been such a stink over a percieved anti-foreigner sentiment as it occurs in the field...due to some people being eager and ready to hop on the anti-Semitic bandwagon...and the majority of them not being Jews themselves. Go figger.
                              To Join JTR Forums :
                              Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X