Library of Congress List of Suspects

[Adam Went]

Indeed, many suspects - including those who the police were arresting and questioning in 1888 - were exonerated then and are still exonerated now by researchers largely on the grounds that they were not available for one of the other murders, they were locked up at the time, or whatever.

I think this is fair enough. The police had a certain victims list in mind and when other murders happened for which their suspects were safely locked away or not in the area, and they satisfied themselves that there was nothing to tie them in to any of the murders, they let them go. Fair enough.

What surprises me about that list is the amount of names who have almost zero percent chance of being JTR....would have thought an effort would have been made to create a Top 10 suspect list or something, rather than just name anybody they could think of.

Mike....a quick point on times....if you're worried about the times of witnesses being out in the Stride case, I suggest you read into the story of Mrs. Caroline Maxwell on seeing Mary Kelly after she was already dead. Either she was a liar, or she was an entire day out with her times. Take your pick. Human error does happen.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mike Richards]

Perhaps its in the term itself, Suspect, that I have issue,...but in order to aggregate 5 murders under one investigative umbrella you do need to have at least one Suspect.

Its at that point where I get nervous....because as amateur sleuths and budding Ripperologists the natural next step would be to then try and identify and define some characteristics about that Suspect based on the evidence available in that aggregated group... in order to seek the proper types of individuals out. With some proof of complicity, or a motive...something.

Thing is, we never had qualified data to start with, because to all our knowledge there are no direct links of one murder with another in the Group, and nothing that points to any one person or group of people.

It seems a great leap of faith to me, ... linking these without evidence and then to seek someone that could have committed them all.

I would think that the Ripper cases must have by far the most diverse and eclectic Suspects List, like the one that started this, of any recorded murder investigation.

Best regards

[Phil Carter]

Cricketers by the name of Grace...

Let me jump in here after four day's without power thanks to an incredibly powerful nor'easter. Anyway, talking about off-beat suspects, I did a few years ago whip up an interesting case against cricket legend Dr. W.G. Grace. Like Druitt, a cricket player, only really, really good; a physician to boot and, as a clincher, no one ever saw Dr. Grace and Aaron Kosminski in the same room at the same time time. Plus, he at least was in England at the time.

Don.

Hello Don,

Excuse me for having only just caught up with this thread, but it caught my eye when you mentioned this name in regard to lists of suspects, and the cricketer Dr.W.G.Grace.(1848-1915)

Sadly for any Dr W.G.Grace=Jack the Ripper fans out there, on the 6th, 7th and 8th September 1888, W.G. (William Gilbert) was playing cricket for Lord Londesborough's Eleven against the Australians at Scarborough, Yorkshire. A very long way from London and Annie Chapman.
Alongside him in the team was Lord Harris. The team was so strong that according to the Wisden Anthology 1864-1900, it was nearly called "England". In 1889, his portrait was painted for the MCC (Marylebone Cricket Club) at the cost of £300 by Archibald Stuart Wortley. This family name is a familiar one within Ripperology.

W.G.Grace played first class cricket until 1908, and his final County match was for The Gentlemen of England v Surrey at the Oval, in April, 1908, when aged nearly 60. His last first class cricket match ever was in 1913, for the MCC against Old Charlton.
Having started playing first class cricket at the age of 16, before his 17th birthday in 1865, he therefore played for 48 years, although he did play club cricket until 25th july, 1914, for Grove Park v Eltham.

W.G.'s wife(Agnes) survived him, and died in Hawkhurst, Kent in 1930, aged 76. She had a prolific memory of cricket games, and cricketers she had seen and met over many years.

W.G.Grace jnr (1874-1905), eldest son of THE W.G., also played County cricket, for London County. He was at one time a schoolmaster, and died after an operation for appendicitis.

Charles Butler Grace, another of his (W.G.'s) sons, died whilst playing cricket at Hawkhurst, Kent in 1938, aged 56.

As well as Dr.W.G.Grace, there was Dr. E.M. Grace and G.F.Grace, all of whom played for the county of Gloucestershire. These three were brothers.


Dr.E.M.(Edward Mills)Grace (1841-1911) played, like W.G Grace, for very many years at the highest level. Playing from 1851 as a boy, playing at a top level from 1861 until 1894, he continued to play club cricket until 1909, at the grand old age of 68.

G.F.Grace (1850-1880), played County cricket for a relatively short time but was an excellent cricketer. All three brothers played in the same team on many occasions.

In addition, a fourth brother, also became a cricketing Doctor. Dr. Alfred Grace (1840-1916) was also a fine cricketer at club level. He was known as the "hunting doctor" for his love of fox-hunting, with dogs. He was a practicing surgeon at Chipping Sodbury, Gloucestershire. His son, Dr. Gerald Grace, died at a young age in South Africa. His other son, Dr. Alfred Henry Grace (1866-1929) was also a fine club cricketer.

Additionally, a fifth brother, Dr. Henry Grace (1833-1895) was also a club cricketer, though not of the same level as his brothers. He did however play in first class matches.

Finally, for the benefit of those searching through records for all Lords of the Realm possibly being Jack the Ripper or The Whitechapel Murderer, on the Bank holiday of 6th August 1888, when Tabram was murdered, Lord Hawke (Yorkshire) and Lord George Scott (Middlesex) were playing cricket for their respective Counties against each other in a fine match in Sheffield, Yorkshire.

This may be of interest to anyone who, like me, find cricket a game of interest, and thereby connections within Ripperology.


best wishes

Phil

[Mike Richards]

Mike:

You say it as if Jack already could see into the future and know what time which witness would see what. That's the whole point, we do, but he didn't, and that's why he got interrupted and had his work cut short!

Like Israel Schwartz, James Brown is not corroborated by any other witnesses, and they do not corroborate each other. The best solution for this is that Brown, having not passed by a clock whereas Schwartz had, was slightly out with his times - as I said, just 5 minutes or so.

When estimating the time, you usually estimate to the closest 15 or 30 minute interval, right? Atleast, that's the way I've always done it...."What time is it?" "Dunno, probably something to 4..." - and so on.

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi again Adam,

Ive actually arrived at a conclusion regarding Brown and I believe that its most probable that he did not see Liz Stride and a man,...in Fanny Mortimers statements she talks about her actions leading up to the point where she hears the ruckus after 1am and goes and sees Liz lying inside the gates, then she states that she saw only the young couple on the street from around 12:50 until 1am....and Leon Goldstein of course.

She didnt associate the 2 women with each other, and she saw both. We dont know that Brown did...and even more, we can see that there indeed was a young couple to account for.

Best regards

[Adam Went]

Colin & All:

Discovered an interesting piece of trivia yesterday, probably unrelated to this thread but since you mentioned Dr. Grace:

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a keen sportsman, as well as being a brilliant at just about everything else that he did, and actually played 10 first-class cricket matches for the MCC......he was mainly a batsman and during these 10 matches, he took only took 1 solitary wicket.....however, that 1 solitary wicket was that of Dr. Grace!! So there you go.....

As a suspect though? No way....have you seen him? lol.

Mike:

I'm not sure I get what you're saying? Do you mean that Brown was lying? And that you're believing the testimony of Mortimer over Brown?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mike Richards]

Mike:

I'm not sure I get what you're saying? Do you mean that Brown was lying? And that you're believing the testimony of Mortimer over Brown?

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

What Im saying is that based on the order in which Fanny Mortimer recounts her witness statement she had seen the couple before she had later seen the woman alone in passage lying dead on the ground. She did not associate the dead woman with the woman who was part of the couple she saw earlier.

Brown identified her mostly by her clothing....and he didnt see one very important aspect of Liz's attire that night.

Fanny Mortimer is the most important witness from the time of PC Smiths sighting until the PC's return to the yard with Eagle after he found them on Commercial when looking for help, because....she had a direct view of the gates for the time its very probable Liz is being murdered, and she saw someone who also later claimed to be there at that time himself. The fact she saw Goldstein, and he says he was there, corroborates Fanny.

Neither Eagle, Lave, Diemshitz or Schwartz has anything they say... with respect to their arrival between 12:30 and 1am, corroborated.

When Fanny says she was there and saw something...we can say in at least one case,....thats authenticated. When she does not say that she heard or saw anything, we have good reason to wonder if anything did happen. Because in at least one instance she is a proven good witness.

I can also tell you that Isaac Kozebrodski almost certainly wasnt the Isaac[s] that accompanied Louis to look for help. I would heartily recommend reading all of Louis's quoted remarks in that respect.

Best regards

[SirRobertAnderson]

Neither Eagle, Lave, Diemshitz or Schwartz has anything they say... with respect to their arrival between 12:30 and 1am, corroborated.

Unfortunately the great majority of witness statements throughout the Case are uncorroborated. It is what it is, and to disregard those that don't fit with a particular theory or point of view is fine so long as one does not disguise it as a "fresh look" or a new path because old ones have dead ended etc etc etc.

[Adam Went]

Mike:

Yes, but as the point has been made before, Mortimer might have seen Leon Goldstein but she missed a heap of other witnesses, regardless of whether you believe her original statement of being around her door for half an hour, or that rubbish about only being there for 10 minutes.....either way, she missed important events and therefore can't be entirely relied upon.

Cheers,
Adam.