Kosminski Letter

[Debra Arif]

How about Wesleyan? A Bell family lived Sherburn, Yorkshire, Wesleyan Methodists. Census 1881 Daughter Patty Laura Rachel Bell, aged 1 1881, died third qtr 1889 age 9. Family lived at Wesleyan Chapel. Laura Rachel buried August 1889..may be too late for a July death.
Wesleyan Methodists often refer to each other as brother/sister

Hi Eileen,
Yes, I looked at that death too, as well as the lady in Belfast but like Robert, I don't think it rings true to call a young child 'sister' in the context of being a follower of a certain religion. I would think the child's mother and father would have been mentioned and perhaps the child being referred to by name and as the daughter of sister or brother so and so?

[Paul Butler]

"Wednesday week past" or alternatively "last Wednesday week" were expressions I recall being used by my west country grandparents, victorians all of them, meaning "a week ago last Wednesday".

[Debra Arif]

"My nicest excursion was Monday week past to the Trossachs"

Written in a letter in October 1861 by George Gilfillan, Scottish preacher, author and poet.

[Sam Flynn]

"Wednesday week past" appears to be an Irish expression.

See https://tinyurl.com/yxe8b86q

"We had two remaining juvenile league finals, the Tipperary League final between Cian Maguire and Ronan Boyle was played on Wednesday week past, . . ."

Interesting... there are a few other examples from Ireland there. Thanks Chris!


So "Dott" could be Irish, or at least of Irish descent.

[Chris G.]

What does "Wednesday week past" mean? If there is some regional dialect where this rather unusual construction is/was used, it might help us pinpoint where Dott came from.

"Wednesday week past" appears to be an Irish expression.

See https://tinyurl.com/yxe8b86q

"We had two remaining juvenile league finals, the Tipperary League final between Cian Maguire and Ronan Boyle was played on Wednesday week past, . . ."

Cheers

Chris

[Sam Flynn]

What does "Wednesday week past" mean? If there is some regional dialect where this rather unusual construction is/was used, it might help us pinpoint where Dott came from.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Eileen


Apart from the late burial, isn't it a bit strange that the writer doesn't mention Pattie's parents - also presumably co-religionists - and how they are taking the tragedy?

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris. I think the reference to the letter being "authenticated" is from Tim's first post on this thread:

The letter is new to the public eye and has been professionally analysed by an expert of over thirty years experience and has assured me that the letter in 100% original to the time/period in paper, writing and wording.

I think Eileen is quite rightly wondering who this expert is and what the 'analysis' amounted to...

Cheers.

Hi Roger

Okay, thanks. Late to the party here.

Then I would also like to know who this expert might be.

But, equally, what do we know about Tim Atkinson. What are his credentials? Do you or anybody know?

Cheers

Chris

[Debra Arif]

Never mind, on reading it more carefully, it looks like Dott and Walter were with Rachel, Tilly and Mary, who was attacked. Michael and Jenny and the unnamed letter recipient are elsewhere (Australia?)

That's the way I read it.

Interestingly the birth certificate of Rachel Hannah Bell who died in Belfast on 27th Aug 1889 and her death registered in Jul-Sept qtr of 89, shows that her name was also spelt the same way as in the letter at birth, as Rachael.

[Eileen Luscombe]

Hi Jeff

I agree that it doesn't seem to be something in use by the Salvation army.
It definitely was a practice within the Brethren church, I haven't looked at Quakers.

How about Wesleyan? A Bell family lived Sherburn, Yorkshire, Wesleyan Methodists. Census 1881 Daughter Patty Laura Rachel Bell, aged 1 1881, died third qtr 1889 age 9. Family lived at Wesleyan Chapel. Laura Rachel buried August 1889..may be too late for a July death.
Wesleyan Methodists often refer to each other as brother/sister

[R. J. Palmer]

Hi Chris. I think the reference to the letter being "authenticated" is from Tim's first post on this thread:

The letter is new to the public eye and has been professionally analysed by an expert of over thirty years experience and has assured me that the letter in 100% original to the time/period in paper, writing and wording.

I think Eileen is quite rightly wondering who this expert is and what the 'analysis' amounted to...

Cheers.

[Chris G.]

. . . Tim, I don't disbelieve your claims but it would be really helpful to me to know who authenticated the letter. Just to check out their credentials. [Emphasis mine.]

You can find me on facebook jtrforums

Cheers
Eileen

With due respect, Eileen, what makes you think anyone authenticated the letter?

As has been discussed, the letter is an "iffy" prospect. That being so, it can't be authenticated.

But as with other questionable artifacts in the case it will have its believers, as with the blessed Maybrick Diary, heading now for 30 years in the public eye. Heaven Help Us.

I believed in a piece of the True Cross once too. It was the cross on which Patricia Cornwell crucified Walter Sickert.

[Eileen Luscombe]

No thanks Howard. I'd rather stick broken glass up me arse. Thanks anyway.

I have shared with people that are appreciative, not sheeple.

Tim, thank you for sharing the letter. I am not an expert in dating materials. However, I do have a newspaper from 1913 that was stored safely with a fold and has now disintegrated into dust at the permanent fold. Have also examined many documents and old letters in archives that were secreted away and folded in books, bibles, etc that have disintegrated at the fold.

If I assume the letter is genuine, it does provide additional context to my Whitechapel Woolf Kosminsky family link and potentially provides the reason why they all left London and went to Australia.

The letter appears to confirm that, at least, on the street the mere name of Kosminski/y was poison by July 1889. Potentially the local word on the street was that police suspected Kos, or perhaps merely Chinese whispers that were now pointing the finger at the local Yiddish yelling crazy Jew Kosminski due to the inability by then of the police to arrest and charge any suspects.

Tim, I don't disbelieve your claims but it would be really helpful to me to know who authenticated the letter. Just to check out their credentials.

You can find me on facebook jtrforums

Cheers
Eileen

[R. J. Palmer]

Hi Tim.

My apologies if you think I “ridiculed” you. I was asked by Jeff Leahy to describe the brief private messages I exchanged with the Australian seller, and I complied, since it would have been rude to ignore him. I never mentioned you, except to wonder if you were able to verify the seller and the “deceased estate."

Were you? Were you given the name of the estate? Because if you weren’t, the document has no provenance and it is highly unlikely that any historian will touch it.

I am glad to hear that your experts have proved the letter “correct.” In your first post you wrote that you were skeptical until the letter’s authenticity was verified by a document examiner "with 30 years’ experience." You are clearly upset by those who remain skeptical (just like you once were) but are unwilling to give any specifics as to what changed your own mind? Isn’t that a bit paradoxical?

If your expert has proved the letter “bang on,” then she/he must have identified Rachel Bell. Do you mind saying? Who was she, because as some of us have noticed, she doesn’t readily spring out of the death records for 1889.

I am more than happy for you to disprove my skepticism by supplying any further information.

Good luck with your project. RP

[Chris G.]

Hello Everyone

Your Host with the Mostest at RipperCon 2020 coming up in #Baltimore next April 24-27 here with some thoughts on the new Kosminki letter.

I am not going to outright dismiss the letter as a forgery or hoax.

In fact, from the images posted here and the report that the paper the letter is written upon is fragile, accounting for the letter today being in a number of fragments I should say it is OLD although possibly not as old as 1888-1889.

Cheers

Chris