Kosminski Letter

[Anna Morris]

Its always been possible that Swanson and Anderson were incorrect

The mystery is why they said what they said in the LSOMOL and in the Marginalia

Even if they are talking about Aron Kozminski which i now believe is incontrovertible

That doesn't mean they were correct about Aaron Kozmninski being the Ripper...Matilda could have been mistaken..

Yours Jeff

I think police had a list of lunatics and others that were suspectss. I think police kept an eye on these men until there was a final answer. Tumblety went back to America, Bury was executed, Kosminski was in an asylum, etc.

The marginalia could refer to Aaron because of his personal habits, therefore he must have been considered a lunatic. On the other hand, he was not necessarily violent and he lived a long time whereas the Kosminski suspect was said to have died soon after entering the asylum.

It also seems possible that if Aaron was the suspect, police would have kept track of him for the rest of his life. He was in the asylum something like 27 years. If he was the suspect it would be very possible more information would have come down to us, that people involved in his care would have gleaned information and whispered about JtR in their asylum.

Even if the letter should be proved authentic, it still does not prove Aaron was JtR. JtR prowled the streets at night and escaped detection at least five times. Aaron in the letter was out of control.

[Jeff Leahy]

If you're telling other people to wait for the results of research, then you shouldn't say "The letter in my opinion is genuine."


In my opinion the letter is an obvious fake, and whatever the letter may or may not be, the attribution to William Patrick Dott is clearly wrong.


And as for the computer generated image of Aaron Kozminski that was published by the Daily Mail, I think it only adds to the misinformation that's already prevalent. Particularly if it's based on claimed photos of the family that have already been shown to be most probably spurious.

I'm sorry Chris...But i have no problem destighising between my personal beliefs as an amateur Ripperologist...of which i have a long and heart felt track record

And my professional opinion as a long and hardworking Television Producer

They are quiet separate things

I wear two hats

As a professional TV producer i think the letter lacks provenance and cedability

As a ripperologist I'm convinced its genuine but i accept I'm not an expert and could be wrong

I responded to the Daily Mail as a TV producer which is probably why they didn't quote me..

I trust that clarify's the situation

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

I think police had a list of lunatics and others that were suspectss. I think police kept an eye on these men until there was a final answer. Tumblety went back to America, Bury was executed, Kosminski was in an asylum, etc.

The marginalia could refer to Aaron because of his personal habits, therefore he must have been considered a lunatic. On the other hand, he was not necessarily violent and he lived a long time whereas the Kosminski suspect was said to have died soon after entering the asylum.

It also seems possible that if Aaron was the suspect, police would have kept track of him for the rest of his life. He was in the asylum something like 27 years. If he was the suspect it would be very possible more information would have come down to us, that people involved in his care would have gleaned information and whispered about JtR in their asylum.

Even if the letter should be proved authentic, it still does not prove Aaron was JtR. JtR prowled the streets at night and escaped detection at least five times. Aaron in the letter was out of control.

Hi Anne..well thats the beef..the one piece of the jigsaw that doesn't add up...He died shortly after being placed in the asylum..

Frankly i believe this was a ruse created by Anderson, given the Crawford letter

And thats why dating the Crawford letter is simply of more importance than dating the Tilly letter

Which lets face it has terrible provenance and no amount of scientific tests will prove its authenticity either way

So research on Dott for the Tilly letter...Contextural

And science on the Crawford letter...when was it written?

Yours Jeff

[Anna Morris]

Hi Anne..well thats the beef..the one piece of the jigsaw that doesn't add up...He died shortly after being placed in the asylum..

Frankly i believe this was a ruse created by Anderson, given the Crawford letter

And thats why dating the Crawford letter is simply of more importance than dating the Tilly letter

Which lets face it has terrible provenance and no amount of scientific tests will prove its authenticity either way

So research on Dott for the Tilly letter...Contextural

And science on the Crawford letter...when was it written?

Yours Jeff

I think all the investigators were in similar circumstances as we are today. Nobody caught JtR in the act. Police back then had more information at hand but they could not arrest anyone. I get the feeling a number of investigators had opinions and those opinions at some point more or less made a list and the men on that list were followed or watched.

Yes, dating and scientifically studying the Crawford letter would be great. The other letter, IMO, has problems but I am very careful what I say. I never want to be hurtful to anyone. I have been in the antique business and am very leery of paper itens in the first place. Some things about the specific letter are troubling but it is a good conversation piece. I don't think I would have been willing to pay very much for it.

[Chris Phillips]

I'm sorry Chris...But i have no problem destighising between my personal beliefs as an amateur Ripperologist...of which i have a long and heart felt track record

And my professional opinion as a long and hardworking Television Producer

They are quiet separate things

I wear two hats

As a professional TV producer i think the letter lacks provenance and cedability

As a ripperologist I'm convinced its genuine but i accept I'm not an expert and could be wrong

I responded to the Daily Mail as a TV producer which is probably why they didn't quote me..

I trust that clarify's the situation

Yours Jeff

No, I'm afraid I don't understand why the photo claimed to be of Isaac should have been used in that mock-up, given the strong evidence that it's not Isaac.

[Jeff Leahy]

No, I'm afraid I don't understand why the photo claimed to be of Isaac should have been used in that mock-up, given the strong evidence that it's not Isaac.

I'm afraid I can't assist ..it had nothing to do with me..and i advised against the artist impression being released at this stage. It certainly has no science behind it.

I am however interested in assisting anyone undertaking serious research into the contextual evidence of the letter....as my gut feeling (as a complete amateur) is that it is genuine..

I did supply Peter Bower (Paper expert) with back lit photographs and he confirmed the paper is of genuine Period for the date via telephone...What he couldn't say is when the ink touched the paper which is a difference set of expertise and requires different tests. My guess is he is being cautious given his treatment by the Ripperolgist community in the past.

My professional opinion is the provenance of the letter will always be poor and thus will only be proven definitively either way via the Contextual evidence.

The nickname 'Tilly' is certainly interesting as very few people would have known of its significance....probably only a handful of people who frequent these boards. So if it is a forgery its a very sophisticated one and that doesn't fit with my understanding of the circumstances by which it was purchased.

I have been requested accurate images of the letter, which i am happy to provide for research purposes to anyone undertaking serious research.

If i had money to invest in testing I think it would be far better trying to date the Crawford letter.

Trusting this clarifies

Yours Jeff

PS and for the record if the letter is proven fake, i am more than happy to admit error, as i said, its not my area of expertise. The truth is always more important than personal pride, and seeking the truth is the most important quality of a documentary producer.

[Chris Phillips]

I'm afraid I can't assist ..it had nothing to do with me..and i advised against the artist impression being released at this stage. It certainly has no science behind it.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. It was just that in a previous post you seemed to be apologising for it:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.php?p=388081&postcount=203

[R. J. Palmer]

Actually, Matilda Kosminski had been mentioned in newspapers all over the globe.

Her name had been broadcast during the "Eddowes shawl" flap, because one of her descendants had supplied the DNA sample. This appeared in many newspapers, including the Daily Mail.

Matilda is also mentioned on Russell Edward's site, etc.

This is relevant, because the letter suddenly appeared on eBay only days after the shawl controversy had resurfaced in the world media.

Anyone researching it would have stumbled upon Matilda's name very quickly.

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Jeff!

At the end I was rather surprised than disappointed when I read the news article. You know we have been in contact with Tim after he had bought the letter. I gave him a lot of information and the advice to work with people who have the skills to solve the problems. I got to know him as a very nice guy who worked hard on the letter. But I was not satisfied with the result. He criticised Howard and RJ and I think that was wrong. I am very sorry for that. I very interested in people like them. They are always polite, friendly and helpful. They deserve our highest respect. Of course, I am a member of the "Aaron Kozminski- Team". People like Rob House, Chris Phillips, Patricia Marshall and John Malcolm do an excellent job on this matter. Their considerations sound logical. But there is also another side, please take a look at the Bachert & The Sauce thread. In my opinion it is not clear that Kosminski is Aaron Kozminski but, of course, it would be possible. I don´t know whether the letter is genuine or forged. "If the letter is genuine" is the better choice for me at the moment.

Karsten.

[Chris Phillips]

Actually, Matilda Kosminski had been mentioned in newspapers all over the globe.

Her name had been broadcast during the "Eddowes shawl" flap, because one of her descendants had supplied the DNA sample. This appeared in many newspapers, including the Daily Mail.

Matilda is also mentioned on Russell Edward's site, etc.

Indeed, the paperback edition of Russell Edwards's book included a photograph, "believed to show her in her later years," but bearing no resemblance to the genuine photographs of her. And of course the book also says Jacob Cohen must have been referring to her when he told Dr Houchin about Aaron's threatening his sister's life with a knife.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff!

At the end I was rather surprised than disappointed when I read the news article. You know we have been in contact with Tim after he had bought the letter. I gave him a lot of information and the advice to work with people who have the skills to solve the problems. I got to know him as a very nice guy who worked hard on the letter. But I was not satisfied with the result. He criticised Howard and RJ and I think that was wrong. I am very sorry for that. I very interested in people like them. They are always polite, friendly and helpful. They deserve our highest respect. Of course, I am a member of the "Aaron Kozminski- Team". People like Rob House, Chris Phillips, Patricia Marshall and John Malcolm do an excellent job on this matter. Their considerations sound logical. But there is also another side, please take a look at the Bachert & The Sauce thread. In my opinion it is not clear that Kosminski is Aaron Kozminski but, of course, it would be possible. I don´t know whether the letter is genuine or forged. "If the letter is genuine" is the better choice for me at the moment.

Karsten.

Unfortunately Karsten...Cat and i had a fall out with Tim and haven't spoken to him in months...this had nothing to do with the letter...But i am not one for tital tatal (Lets say Cat did some research). Its unfortunate he went to the Daily Mail...this certainly had nothing to do with me, they did however contact me for comment and i told the truth as i always do...The idea for the picture was originally 'mine' (In fact an idea turned down when we made definitive Story) but i have been collecting Koz family photos for years now and was hoping to achieve something far more sophisticated (And was naturally pissed off at someone jumping the gun and doing it badly), purely as a visual devise rather than any real science (Has to be better than the picture they usually use)

Like you as a Kosmologist i believe i think it genuine...but i remain open to FACTS and what research finds without prejudice.

As for the name Matilda being in the public domain some time, i have never disputed this...

What i think i clearly said is the nickname 'Tilly' hadn't ever been widely connected to 'Matilda'...which is a rather different thing...This would have taken considerable research as its not in the current A to Z. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone other than you and i actually ever discussed it before the letter turned up, but i don't keep track on casebook anymore..

And i simply don't think the seller would have gone to all that trouble for £250, it docent make sense.

Anyway trusting you are well

Yours Jef

[Karsten Giese]

Anyway trusting you are well

I am quite well, thanks Jeff! I hope you are fine.

Unfortunately Karsten...Cat and i had a fall out with Tim and haven't spoken to him in months..

I'm sorry about that.

In his defense it must be said that he is more critical than it seems. I don't want to say more about this because our relationship is intact, I guess. But he said publicly: "The guy that I bought the letter from actually bought the letter from an antiques company in England". I know that someone is looking for this antiques company to find more letters written by "Dott". This can help to verify the authenticity of the letter.

As for the name Matilda being in the public domain some time, i have never disputed this...

What i think i clearly said is the nickname 'Tilly' hadn't ever been widely connected to 'Matilda'...which is a rather different thing...This would have taken considerable research as its not in the current A to Z. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone other than you and i actually ever discussed it before the letter turned up, but i don't keep track on casebook anymore..

Matilda! You know, Annie Farmer was known as "Matilda", "Tilly" and "Flossie." Who knows, maybe Dott referred to Annie Farmer (if the letter is genuine) as one of the "poor girls".

No doubt, you remember that we were speculating whether this Matilda (Tilly) could have been Matilda Lubnowski.

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

“Great excitement was caused in the East-end, and throughout the metropolis generally, yesterday by the attempted murder of a woman in the district of the tragedie… is known as Annie, or Matilda, Farmer. She is stated to be a married woman of good appearance and about 34 years of age.” (like Matilda Lubnowski)

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

There was another incident after the Farmer attack and we thought that the press mixed-up these two occurrences. We thought Matilda Lubnowski had a quarrel with her brother Aaron Kozminski. Of course, pure speculation.

The Bachert & The Sauce thread mentiones the Butcher Thomas Davis at 4 Whitechapel High Street ("Butchers Row"). It was the shop of Charles Henry Knight, meat salesman, 4 Whitechapel High Street. There was also another butcher shop of a Charles Knight at 65 Brick Lane. Not far away from the crime scene in Hanbury Street and the Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. These two addresses of a Butcher I find them remarkable. Certainly, not the only Butcher...

Macnaghten and Cox mentioned that a suspect (suspects) occupied several shop in the East End. Sagar mentioned "friends" (not necessarily Jewish friends).

(see Bachert thread)
"We found our man. He was engaged in a large way of business in the city of London, was married, had a family, and was generally respected. For some time he had been known as eccentric, and various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety"

"He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends"

"In business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it"

With the example of the Butcher Knight it would be possible that "Kosminski" lived and worked at 65 Brick Lane and that he also was engaged in the Butchers Row business (Knight and other Butchers). It would be possible that he left the shop at 65 Brick Lane when the series of murders began (see press reports in October 1888 when a woman reported about a near relative). After this his place of business (Cox) was a certain street (Butchers Row). And he had a brother in Whitechapel.

Again, Knight is an example, nothing else.

But in this example, Aaron Kozminski doesn´t fit. Another "Kosminski" is possible, a Kosminski with a wife and a daughter. Maybe older than Aaron. Maybe an alcoholic, an epileptic, maybe critically ill (not only mentally) who would die soon (see Swanson).

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

I am quite well, thanks Jeff! I hope you are fine.

I'm sorry about that.

In his defense it must be said that he is more critical than it seems. I don't want to say more about this because our relationship is intact, I guess. But he said publicly: "The guy that I bought the letter from actually bought the letter from an antiques company in England". I know that someone is looking for this antiques company to find more letters written by "Dott". This can help to verify the authenticity of the letter.

Matilda! You know, Annie Farmer was known as "Matilda", "Tilly" and "Flossie." Who knows, maybe Dott referred to Annie Farmer (if the letter is genuine) as one of the "poor girls".

No doubt, you remember that we were speculating whether this Matilda (Tilly) could have been Matilda Lubnowski.

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

“Great excitement was caused in the East-end, and throughout the metropolis generally, yesterday by the attempted murder of a woman in the district of the tragedie… is known as Annie, or Matilda, Farmer. She is stated to be a married woman of good appearance and about 34 years of age.” (like Matilda Lubnowski)

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

There was another incident after the Farmer attack and we thought that the press mixed-up these two occurrences. We thought Matilda Lubnowski had a quarrel with her brother Aaron Kozminski. Of course, pure speculation.

The Bachert & The Sauce thread mentiones the Butcher Thomas Davis at 4 Whitechapel High Street ("Butchers Row"). It was the shop of Charles Henry Knight, meat salesman, 4 Whitechapel High Street. There was also another butcher shop of a Charles Knight at 65 Brick Lane. Not far away from the crime scene in Hanbury Street and the Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. These two addresses of a Butcher I find them remarkable. Certainly, not the only Butcher...

Macnaghten and Cox mentioned that a suspect (suspects) occupied several shop in the East End. Sagar mentioned "friends" (not necessarily Jewish friends).

(see Bachert thread)
"We found our man. He was engaged in a large way of business in the city of London, was married, had a family, and was generally respected. For some time he had been known as eccentric, and various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety"

"He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends"

"In business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it"

With the example of the Butcher Knight it would be possible that "Kosminski" lived and worked at 65 Brick Lane and that he also was engaged in the Butchers Row business (Knight and other Butchers). It would be possible that he left the shop at 65 Brick Lane when the series of murders began (see press reports in October 1888 when a woman reported about a near relative). After this his place of business (Cox) was a certain street (Butchers Row). And he had a brother in Whitechapel.

Again, Knight is an example, nothing else.

But in this example, Aaron Kozminski doesn´t fit. Another "Kosminski" is possible, a Kosminski with a wife and a daughter. Maybe older than Aaron. Maybe an alcoholic, an epileptic, maybe critically ill (not only mentally) who would die soon (see Swanson).

Karsten.

Hi Karsten

Just picked this up and rather late so i will respond tomorrow... As you may remember Cat likes eating 'doughnuts'..But i'm sure Tim is a wonderful fellow free of poltergeist..

In the mean time you raise a number of issues that require thought

and i've received some knew information to discuss in private

Good night my friend and yes i read the thread in full


Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Matilda! You know, Annie Farmer was known as "Matilda", "Tilly" and "Flossie." Who knows, maybe Dott referred to Annie Farmer (if the letter is genuine) as one of the "poor girls".

No doubt, you remember that we were speculating whether this Matilda (Tilly) could have been Matilda Lubnowski.

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

“Great excitement was caused in the East-end, and throughout the metropolis generally, yesterday by the attempted murder of a woman in the district of the tragedie… is known as Annie, or Matilda, Farmer. She is stated to be a married woman of good appearance and about 34 years of age.” (like Matilda Lubnowski)

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

There was another incident after the Farmer attack and we thought that the press mixed-up these two occurrences. We thought Matilda Lubnowski had a quarrel with her brother Aaron Kozminski. Of course, pure speculation.

Yes i totally agree. And frankly thats what strikes me about the letter.

If it was forged then why take the chance or even making the connect with 'TILLY' it doesn't make sense....Apart from a relatively obscure conversation between ourselves no one had ever made the connection Tilly and Kozminski

Why not Milly or Tilda? If the forger was aware of Matilda

Yet here we have something that we speculated about following the Brick lane info.....And frankly what are the odds of this being a coincidence that Aaron Kozminski has a sister called Matilda..

And the date fits perfectly with my theorising on Kozminski entering the asylum Twice...A private Asylum in March 1889 paid in advance for the required Quarter by his family...which places him back on the streets three months later

And this letter is dated? See attached....(Sorry if thats a little large Howard ..as you can appreciate i work in 1920 x 1080 format)

The Bachert & The Sauce thread mentiones the Butcher Thomas Davis at 4 Whitechapel High Street ("Butchers Row"). It was the shop of Charles Henry Knight, meat salesman, 4 Whitechapel High Street. There was also another butcher shop of a Charles Knight at 65 Brick Lane. Not far away from the crime scene in Hanbury Street and the Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. These two addresses of a Butcher I find them remarkable. Certainly, not the only Butcher...

Macnaghten and Cox mentioned that a suspect (suspects) occupied several shop in the East End. Sagar mentioned "friends" (not necessarily Jewish friends).

(see Bachert thread)
"We found our man. He was engaged in a large way of business in the city of London, was married, had a family, and was generally respected. For some time he had been known as eccentric, and various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety"

"He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends"

"In business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it"

With the example of the Butcher Knight it would be possible that "Kosminski" lived and worked at 65 Brick Lane and that he also was engaged in the Butchers Row business (Knight and other Butchers). It would be possible that he left the shop at 65 Brick Lane when the series of murders began (see press reports in October 1888 when a woman reported about a near relative). After this his place of business (Cox) was a certain street (Butchers Row). And he had a brother in Whitechapel.

Again, Knight is an example, nothing else.

But in this example, Aaron Kozminski doesn´t fit. Another "Kosminski" is possible, a Kosminski with a wife and a daughter. Maybe older than Aaron. Maybe an alcoholic, an epileptic, maybe critically ill (not only mentally) who would die soon (see Swanson).

Karsten.

Ok I can see what you are saying. But i've always wondered how one error...ie Swanson said 'he deid soon after' out ways all the other babies in the bath tub. Especially if Anderson was trying to protect or had done a deal with the family in return for their cooperation....surely the 'Died soon afterwards' was a creation to put off other people in the department (Including Abberline) from asking to many questions about the family.

Just on another point wasn't there other speculation about Aaron Kozminski having been in a relationship? It triggers something in the back of my mind..

I think your right to explore all possibilities. Certainly the Butchering connection ahas always interested me as Aarons Grandfather was a Butcher and all the family worked in businesses connected to animal bi-products leather, glue, furs etc

I'll keep my thinking hat on...sorry if not much help at present

Yours jeff

[R. J. Palmer]

Hi Jeff. If you don't mind me asking, precisely what are you saying?

You suggesting there is documentation showing that Malke/Matilda Lubnowski really did go by the name 'Tilly' in 1889, or at least in the 1890s?

Am I reading that right? Thanks.