Kosminski Letter

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Jeff!

And the date fits perfectly with my theorising on Kozminski entering the asylum Twice...A private Asylum in March 1889 paid in advance for the required Quarter by his family...which places him back on the streets three months later

And this could mean: June/ July 1889- "Kosminski" returns (from a private asylum in Surrey/Cox- "The 'proof ' was that the crimes ceased when the suspect was sent away from London"/ Mary Berkin/ Swanson.) to his brother´s house in Whitechapel where "he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and died shortly afterwards".

Btw.: "Tilly" in the this letter could have been a person who belonged to family/friends of Dott, Walter, Mary, Jenny, Michael and Rachel (see letter). I think it is possible that this "Tilly" wasn´t Jewish. Otherwise, I cannot explain to myself why Dott wrote "The Jew Kosminski".

Mary "ran all the way back" sounds topical.

"It’s a wonder he hasn´t hung for what he did to those poor girls... and the terror he has delivered to poor Tilly" certainly took place some time prior to the attack on Mary. Of course, this would fit to Annie "Tillie" Farmer and Matilda Lubnowski. But it is also possible that "Tilly" belonged to Kosminski´s "friends" (see "various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety").

But you have to find "Kosminski" on the records of the Stepney Workhouse and Colney Hatch at that time. It might be difficult... not to mention a private asylum in Surrey.

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff. If you don't mind me asking, precisely what are you saying?

You suggesting there is documentation showing that Malke/Matilda Lubnowski really did go by the name 'Tilly' in 1889, or at least in the 1890s?

Am I reading that right? Thanks.

No i'm saying that if a forger decided to connect Kozminski via Matilda using the name Tilly....Thats fairly obscure. As to my knowledge the only people who had discussed Tilly as a possible connection to Matilda (Before the letter turned up) had been Karsten and myself who had speculated that Tilly and Matilda might be one and the same given news paper articles about an attack in Brick lane and possibly confused with the attack on Annie Farmer the same day.

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

This is fairly obscure and rather an odd thing for a potential forger to pick up upon. Why use TILLY? why not Milly? Just seems a massive coincidence to me if he hit upon it by accident.

And given the flamboyant character of the seller on eBay this rather tiny fragile letter doesn't seem at all....well showman like..

So at present i think it should be taken seriously and studied for contextual fits or non fits. Largely because the provenance is so poor any amount of testing will prove in-conclusive.

Trust that clarifies RJ

Yours Jeff

[R. J. Palmer]

Matilda "Tilly" Devine was a famous Australian gangster, so maybe it's an Australian thing to think of that particular form.

[Jeff Leahy]

Matilda "Tilly" Devine was a famous Australian gangster, so maybe it's an Australian thing to think of that particular form.

Possibly RJ...but it still strikes me as a massive coincidence if coincidence it is..

So someone went to a lot of trouble researching obscure Forum threads...which doesn't add up to £250 quids worth

Or its worth continuing with the contextual analysis, which is what I'm saying

Yours jeff

[Chris Phillips]

Given that "Tilly" is a familiar form of "Matilda," I'm baffled by the suggestion that the use of the name "Tilly" in this letter is somehow an indication that it's genuine - whether the writer had in mind Aaron Kozminski's sister Matilda or was simply using a familiar form of a common Victorian woman's name.

This was my conclusion after a very cursory look at W. P. Dott when the suggestion that he was the author was made about a month ago:

"I don't think any of the details really fit the letter (though no doubt some special pleading could be done). Dott's family had lived in Stepney Green, not particularly close to Kozminski's, but it seems they had moved to Hackney by 1889. Dott himself had just matriculated at Oxford University (i.e. he was just beginning his studies) and wouldn't become a vicar until several years later (not moving to All Hallows Barking until after a period in Croydon)"

The evidence I've seen since then only tends to confirm that W. P. Dott didn't write that latter. Of course I would be very interested if any new genuine information emerged about Aaron Kozminski, but I'm afraid this letter just screams "fake" to me. It's very understandable that some people should want to believe it, but I don't believe it's genuine. And I think the idea that W. P. Dott wrote it is certainly wrong.

[Anna Morris]

The nicnake 'Tilly' sounds very frivolous and familiar. It just seems wrong that a Polish immigrant woman would acquire that name or that she would choose it. I suppose if she had a lot of interaction with the public-- as I recall the letter speaks of her vending on the street-- the name might have come about but it still seems like a stretch. This is just an initial impression I have had all along.

I did a little research on the name Tilly as Polish. In America, a number of Jewish names were changed to Tillie when the people immigrated, including Tillie for Matilda. There is some food for thought there. There was also a female serial poisoner in Chicago named Ottilie and called Tillie.

[Chris Phillips]

The nicnake 'Tilly' sounds very frivolous and familiar. It just seems wrong that a Polish immigrant woman would acquire that name or that she would choose it. I suppose if she had a lot of interaction with the public-- as I recall the letter speaks of her vending on the street-- the name might have come about but it still seems like a stretch. This is just an initial impression I have had all along.

I did a little research on the name Tilly as Polish. In America, a number of Jewish names were changed to Tillie when the people immigrated, including Tillie for Matilda. There is some food for thought there. There was also a female serial poisoner in Chicago named Ottilie and called Tillie.

I don't have any note of Matilda Lubnowski Cohen having been known as Tilly, though certainly her niece (daughter of Woolf) and her husband's niece (daughter of Israel) were known both as Matilda and as Tilly/Tillie.

But that's not surprising, as Tilly was short for Matilda. I just don't understand the logic behind the argument that this letter - because it refers to someone called Tilly - has to be genuine, just because there's been some speculation here linking a particular "Matilda" to a particular "Tilly".

It's not at all surprising that any particular Matilda should have been known as Tilly - because Tilly was just a short form of Matilda - or that any Victorian document or purported Victorian document should have mentioned a Tilly - because Matilda/Tilly was a common Victorian name.

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Chris! I trust in your opinion as I always do. Tim sent me handwriting samples of Patrick Dott and in my view (of course, I´m not an expert) there were no similarities between them and the Dott signature in the letter. And I thought Dott is female, not male. I also had my doubts about Patrick Dott as the writter of the letter but couldn´t change Tim´s view. Somehow I have the feeling that the letter finds its way to Russell Edwards.

Of course, the use of the name Tilly is a familiar form of Matilda. The only reference to a "Tilly" in the family of Aaron Kozminski did you find:

Yes. That comes from the records of the London Hospital:
[April 28] 555 [without tickets] [No] 7 Marie Lobonoffski 23 Battys Gardens Back Ch: Lane, WC. [Aged] 1 [Ward: Rachel] deleted in red and Buxton written in red above
Bronchitis [?Sutton] [Date of discharge: May] 27 87 [Days in hospital:] 29
[1887 Physicians' Female Admission Register]

This may be a daughter of Morris Lubnowski's brother Israel. Estimates of her date of birth vary, but she would be roughly the right age. Elsewhere she was called Mattie, Tilly or Matilda.

Matilda Lubnowski, called "Tilly"? It wouldn´t be a surprise... it´s no indication that the letter is genuine... you are completely right.

Jeff!

The Brick Lane/Matilda- story you can forget it. There are press reports/ 21 November 1888 that mentioned "Matilda" (Annie Farmer).

Correction:

65 Brick Lane- Morris Klichewski/Butcher
149 Brick Lane- Charles Knight/ Butcher

Karsten.

[Chris Phillips]

Hi Chris! I trust in your opinion as I always do. Tim sent me handwriting samples of Patrick Dott and in my view (of course, I´m not an expert) there were no similarities between them and the Dott signature in the letter. And I thought Dott is female, not male. I also had my doubts about Patrick Dott as the writter of the letter but couldn´t change Tim´s view. Somehow I have the feeling that the letter finds its way to Russell Edwards.

That would certainly be a shame, because after six years it's still not easy to get at the facts behind the claims Russell Edwards made in 2014.

Of course, the use of the name Tilly is a familiar form of Matilda. The only reference to a "Tilly" in the family of Aaron Kozminski did you find:

Yes. That comes from the records of the London Hospital:
[April 28] 555 [without tickets] [No] 7 Marie Lobonoffski 23 Battys Gardens Back Ch: Lane, WC. [Aged] 1 [Ward: Rachel] deleted in red and Buxton written in red above
Bronchitis [?Sutton] [Date of discharge: May] 27 87 [Days in hospital:] 29
[1887 Physicians' Female Admission Register]

This may be a daughter of Morris Lubnowski's brother Israel. Estimates of her date of birth vary, but she would be roughly the right age. Elsewhere she was called Mattie, Tilly or Matilda.

Yes, Matilda the daughter of Israel was one of the two Tillys I mentioned among the relations of Matilda Lubnowski Cohen. (Though I am doubtful whether the "Marie Lobonoffski" of that record is the same as Israel's daughter Matilda, neat though that would be as an identification.)

[Jeff Leahy]

Given that "Tilly" is a familiar form of "Matilda," I'm baffled by the suggestion that the use of the name "Tilly" in this letter is somehow an indication that it's genuine - whether the writer had in mind Aaron Kozminski's sister Matilda or was simply using a familiar form of a common Victorian woman's name.

Your simply miss understanding the problem we are trying to figure OUT!

The question is about what a potential forger would have imagined?

And.. at what time when that forger would have considered his forgery would he have considered the name TILLY? unless he was following an extreme couple of loon balls called Jeff and Karsten on JtRFormums..

He would have forged an obvious conection like Matilda and pushed the forgery price into the thousands? He failed...so go figure

But nothing makes sense..yours j



Yours Jeff and Cat

[Karsten Giese]

... because after six years it's still not easy to get at the facts behind the claims Russell Edwards made in 2014.

Chris, I don't know about you, but this reminds me of Macnaghten:

London Evening News And Post, 13. September 1889:

"The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."

Macnaghten:

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, & resident in Whitechapel. This man became insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies; he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889. There were many circs. connected with this man which made him a strong suspect."

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, with strong homicidal tendencies. He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889. This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

Forgive me if I misinterpreting this but one might think that a suspect (Kosminski?) was confined to his room sometimes. The reason? His physical suffering ("...indulgence in solitary vices"/ Masturbation). Kosminski also was Macnaghten´s "second man".

[Jeff Leahy]

(and I believe still is)

And there we have it Karsten!

AND I BEKIEVE STILL IS

MacNaughten had know clue where Kozminski was after March 1889

That is the answer to the entire mystery

AND I BELEIVE STILL IS

because MacNaughten DIDNT KNOW he didn't know what happened to Kozminsdki after this date..March 1889

THAT IS THE FUCKING ANSWER!

He simply worked from a file created up to that date..when making his memoranda..

MacNaughten had no clue what happened between March 1889 and when he wrote the report in 1894..because that was his info

Yours Jeff

[Karsten Giese]

And there we have it Karsten!

AND I BEKIEVE STILL IS

MacNaughten had know clue where Kozminski was after March 1889

That is the answer to the entire mystery

AND I BELEIVE STILL IS

because MacNaughten DIDNT KNOW he didn't know what happened to Kozminsdki after this date..March 1889

MacNaughten had no clue what happened between March 1889 and when he wrote the report in 1894..because that was his info

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff!

Well, I compared Macnaghten´s statements with an article dated September 1889. Macnaghten stated "he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889" & "and I believe still is" in 1894. It doesn´t mean that Kosminski was never released from this asylum. Cox said: "but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey". See also: "he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will".

As your friend, I ask you to remember that the people here are very nice, and they deserve our appreciation not only for their good work. Without them we would not be here now.

Yours Karsten.

[Chris Phillips]

Your simply miss understanding the problem we are trying to figure OUT!

The question is about what a potential forger would have imagined?

And.. at what time when that forger would have considered his forgery would he have considered the name TILLY? unless he was following an extreme couple of loon balls called Jeff and Karsten on JtRFormums..

He would have forged an obvious conection like Matilda and pushed the forgery price into the thousands? He failed...so go figure

But nothing makes sense..yours j



Yours Jeff and Cat

I think the question to ask is why the faker shouldn't have used the name "Tilly". He might have used it just because it was the short form of a common Victorian name, without thinking of any Matilda in particular. Or perhaps he did have Matilda Lubnowski Cohen in mind, and used the short form of her name, as we know two of her and her husband's nieces did. Either way, I don't see any reason to suppose there was any connection with the discussion on jtrforums.

[Chris Phillips]

Chris, I don't know about you, but this reminds me of Macnaghten:

London Evening News And Post, 13. September 1889:

"The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."

Macnaghten:

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, & resident in Whitechapel. This man became insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies; he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889. There were many circs. connected with this man which made him a strong suspect."

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, with strong homicidal tendencies. He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889. This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

Forgive me if I misinterpreting this but one might think that a suspect (Kosminski?) was confined to his room sometimes. The reason? His physical suffering ("...indulgence in solitary vices"/ Masturbation). Kosminski also was Macnaghten´s "second man".

I think the reference to "physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible" probably means he had suffered from a venereal disease, and blamed the woman he'd contracted it from, while denying any responsibility himself.