Kosminski Letter

[Jeff Leahy]

Given that "Tilly" is a familiar form of "Matilda," I'm baffled by the suggestion that the use of the name "Tilly" in this letter is somehow an indication that it's genuine - whether the writer had in mind Aaron Kozminski's sister Matilda or was simply using a familiar form of a common Victorian woman's name.

Your simply miss understanding the problem we are trying to figure OUT!

The question is about what a potential forger would have imagined?

And.. at what time when that forger would have considered his forgery would he have considered the name TILLY? unless he was following an extreme couple of loon balls called Jeff and Karsten on JtRFormums..

He would have forged an obvious conection like Matilda and pushed the forgery price into the thousands? He failed...so go figure

But nothing makes sense..yours j



Yours Jeff and Cat

[Chris Phillips]

Hi Chris! I trust in your opinion as I always do. Tim sent me handwriting samples of Patrick Dott and in my view (of course, I´m not an expert) there were no similarities between them and the Dott signature in the letter. And I thought Dott is female, not male. I also had my doubts about Patrick Dott as the writter of the letter but couldn´t change Tim´s view. Somehow I have the feeling that the letter finds its way to Russell Edwards.

That would certainly be a shame, because after six years it's still not easy to get at the facts behind the claims Russell Edwards made in 2014.

Of course, the use of the name Tilly is a familiar form of Matilda. The only reference to a "Tilly" in the family of Aaron Kozminski did you find:

Yes. That comes from the records of the London Hospital:
[April 28] 555 [without tickets] [No] 7 Marie Lobonoffski 23 Battys Gardens Back Ch: Lane, WC. [Aged] 1 [Ward: Rachel] deleted in red and Buxton written in red above
Bronchitis [?Sutton] [Date of discharge: May] 27 87 [Days in hospital:] 29
[1887 Physicians' Female Admission Register]

This may be a daughter of Morris Lubnowski's brother Israel. Estimates of her date of birth vary, but she would be roughly the right age. Elsewhere she was called Mattie, Tilly or Matilda.

Yes, Matilda the daughter of Israel was one of the two Tillys I mentioned among the relations of Matilda Lubnowski Cohen. (Though I am doubtful whether the "Marie Lobonoffski" of that record is the same as Israel's daughter Matilda, neat though that would be as an identification.)

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Chris! I trust in your opinion as I always do. Tim sent me handwriting samples of Patrick Dott and in my view (of course, I´m not an expert) there were no similarities between them and the Dott signature in the letter. And I thought Dott is female, not male. I also had my doubts about Patrick Dott as the writter of the letter but couldn´t change Tim´s view. Somehow I have the feeling that the letter finds its way to Russell Edwards.

Of course, the use of the name Tilly is a familiar form of Matilda. The only reference to a "Tilly" in the family of Aaron Kozminski did you find:

Yes. That comes from the records of the London Hospital:
[April 28] 555 [without tickets] [No] 7 Marie Lobonoffski 23 Battys Gardens Back Ch: Lane, WC. [Aged] 1 [Ward: Rachel] deleted in red and Buxton written in red above
Bronchitis [?Sutton] [Date of discharge: May] 27 87 [Days in hospital:] 29
[1887 Physicians' Female Admission Register]

This may be a daughter of Morris Lubnowski's brother Israel. Estimates of her date of birth vary, but she would be roughly the right age. Elsewhere she was called Mattie, Tilly or Matilda.

Matilda Lubnowski, called "Tilly"? It wouldn´t be a surprise... it´s no indication that the letter is genuine... you are completely right.

Jeff!

The Brick Lane/Matilda- story you can forget it. There are press reports/ 21 November 1888 that mentioned "Matilda" (Annie Farmer).

Correction:

65 Brick Lane- Morris Klichewski/Butcher
149 Brick Lane- Charles Knight/ Butcher

Karsten.

[Chris Phillips]

The nicnake 'Tilly' sounds very frivolous and familiar. It just seems wrong that a Polish immigrant woman would acquire that name or that she would choose it. I suppose if she had a lot of interaction with the public-- as I recall the letter speaks of her vending on the street-- the name might have come about but it still seems like a stretch. This is just an initial impression I have had all along.

I did a little research on the name Tilly as Polish. In America, a number of Jewish names were changed to Tillie when the people immigrated, including Tillie for Matilda. There is some food for thought there. There was also a female serial poisoner in Chicago named Ottilie and called Tillie.

I don't have any note of Matilda Lubnowski Cohen having been known as Tilly, though certainly her niece (daughter of Woolf) and her husband's niece (daughter of Israel) were known both as Matilda and as Tilly/Tillie.

But that's not surprising, as Tilly was short for Matilda. I just don't understand the logic behind the argument that this letter - because it refers to someone called Tilly - has to be genuine, just because there's been some speculation here linking a particular "Matilda" to a particular "Tilly".

It's not at all surprising that any particular Matilda should have been known as Tilly - because Tilly was just a short form of Matilda - or that any Victorian document or purported Victorian document should have mentioned a Tilly - because Matilda/Tilly was a common Victorian name.

[Anna Morris]

The nicnake 'Tilly' sounds very frivolous and familiar. It just seems wrong that a Polish immigrant woman would acquire that name or that she would choose it. I suppose if she had a lot of interaction with the public-- as I recall the letter speaks of her vending on the street-- the name might have come about but it still seems like a stretch. This is just an initial impression I have had all along.

I did a little research on the name Tilly as Polish. In America, a number of Jewish names were changed to Tillie when the people immigrated, including Tillie for Matilda. There is some food for thought there. There was also a female serial poisoner in Chicago named Ottilie and called Tillie.

[Chris Phillips]

Given that "Tilly" is a familiar form of "Matilda," I'm baffled by the suggestion that the use of the name "Tilly" in this letter is somehow an indication that it's genuine - whether the writer had in mind Aaron Kozminski's sister Matilda or was simply using a familiar form of a common Victorian woman's name.

This was my conclusion after a very cursory look at W. P. Dott when the suggestion that he was the author was made about a month ago:

"I don't think any of the details really fit the letter (though no doubt some special pleading could be done). Dott's family had lived in Stepney Green, not particularly close to Kozminski's, but it seems they had moved to Hackney by 1889. Dott himself had just matriculated at Oxford University (i.e. he was just beginning his studies) and wouldn't become a vicar until several years later (not moving to All Hallows Barking until after a period in Croydon)"

The evidence I've seen since then only tends to confirm that W. P. Dott didn't write that latter. Of course I would be very interested if any new genuine information emerged about Aaron Kozminski, but I'm afraid this letter just screams "fake" to me. It's very understandable that some people should want to believe it, but I don't believe it's genuine. And I think the idea that W. P. Dott wrote it is certainly wrong.

[Jeff Leahy]

Matilda "Tilly" Devine was a famous Australian gangster, so maybe it's an Australian thing to think of that particular form.

Possibly RJ...but it still strikes me as a massive coincidence if coincidence it is..

So someone went to a lot of trouble researching obscure Forum threads...which doesn't add up to £250 quids worth

Or its worth continuing with the contextual analysis, which is what I'm saying

Yours jeff

[R. J. Palmer]

Matilda "Tilly" Devine was a famous Australian gangster, so maybe it's an Australian thing to think of that particular form.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff. If you don't mind me asking, precisely what are you saying?

You suggesting there is documentation showing that Malke/Matilda Lubnowski really did go by the name 'Tilly' in 1889, or at least in the 1890s?

Am I reading that right? Thanks.

No i'm saying that if a forger decided to connect Kozminski via Matilda using the name Tilly....Thats fairly obscure. As to my knowledge the only people who had discussed Tilly as a possible connection to Matilda (Before the letter turned up) had been Karsten and myself who had speculated that Tilly and Matilda might be one and the same given news paper articles about an attack in Brick lane and possibly confused with the attack on Annie Farmer the same day.

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

This is fairly obscure and rather an odd thing for a potential forger to pick up upon. Why use TILLY? why not Milly? Just seems a massive coincidence to me if he hit upon it by accident.

And given the flamboyant character of the seller on eBay this rather tiny fragile letter doesn't seem at all....well showman like..

So at present i think it should be taken seriously and studied for contextual fits or non fits. Largely because the provenance is so poor any amount of testing will prove in-conclusive.

Trust that clarifies RJ

Yours Jeff

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Jeff!

And the date fits perfectly with my theorising on Kozminski entering the asylum Twice...A private Asylum in March 1889 paid in advance for the required Quarter by his family...which places him back on the streets three months later

And this could mean: June/ July 1889- "Kosminski" returns (from a private asylum in Surrey/Cox- "The 'proof ' was that the crimes ceased when the suspect was sent away from London"/ Mary Berkin/ Swanson.) to his brother´s house in Whitechapel where "he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and died shortly afterwards".

Btw.: "Tilly" in the this letter could have been a person who belonged to family/friends of Dott, Walter, Mary, Jenny, Michael and Rachel (see letter). I think it is possible that this "Tilly" wasn´t Jewish. Otherwise, I cannot explain to myself why Dott wrote "The Jew Kosminski".

Mary "ran all the way back" sounds topical.

"It’s a wonder he hasn´t hung for what he did to those poor girls... and the terror he has delivered to poor Tilly" certainly took place some time prior to the attack on Mary. Of course, this would fit to Annie "Tillie" Farmer and Matilda Lubnowski. But it is also possible that "Tilly" belonged to Kosminski´s "friends" (see "various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety").

But you have to find "Kosminski" on the records of the Stepney Workhouse and Colney Hatch at that time. It might be difficult... not to mention a private asylum in Surrey.

Karsten.

[R. J. Palmer]

Hi Jeff. If you don't mind me asking, precisely what are you saying?

You suggesting there is documentation showing that Malke/Matilda Lubnowski really did go by the name 'Tilly' in 1889, or at least in the 1890s?

Am I reading that right? Thanks.

[Jeff Leahy]

Matilda! You know, Annie Farmer was known as "Matilda", "Tilly" and "Flossie." Who knows, maybe Dott referred to Annie Farmer (if the letter is genuine) as one of the "poor girls".

No doubt, you remember that we were speculating whether this Matilda (Tilly) could have been Matilda Lubnowski.

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

“Great excitement was caused in the East-end, and throughout the metropolis generally, yesterday by the attempted murder of a woman in the district of the tragedie… is known as Annie, or Matilda, Farmer. She is stated to be a married woman of good appearance and about 34 years of age.” (like Matilda Lubnowski)

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

There was another incident after the Farmer attack and we thought that the press mixed-up these two occurrences. We thought Matilda Lubnowski had a quarrel with her brother Aaron Kozminski. Of course, pure speculation.

Yes i totally agree. And frankly thats what strikes me about the letter.

If it was forged then why take the chance or even making the connect with 'TILLY' it doesn't make sense....Apart from a relatively obscure conversation between ourselves no one had ever made the connection Tilly and Kozminski

Why not Milly or Tilda? If the forger was aware of Matilda

Yet here we have something that we speculated about following the Brick lane info.....And frankly what are the odds of this being a coincidence that Aaron Kozminski has a sister called Matilda..

And the date fits perfectly with my theorising on Kozminski entering the asylum Twice...A private Asylum in March 1889 paid in advance for the required Quarter by his family...which places him back on the streets three months later

And this letter is dated? See attached....(Sorry if thats a little large Howard ..as you can appreciate i work in 1920 x 1080 format)

The Bachert & The Sauce thread mentiones the Butcher Thomas Davis at 4 Whitechapel High Street ("Butchers Row"). It was the shop of Charles Henry Knight, meat salesman, 4 Whitechapel High Street. There was also another butcher shop of a Charles Knight at 65 Brick Lane. Not far away from the crime scene in Hanbury Street and the Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. These two addresses of a Butcher I find them remarkable. Certainly, not the only Butcher...

Macnaghten and Cox mentioned that a suspect (suspects) occupied several shop in the East End. Sagar mentioned "friends" (not necessarily Jewish friends).

(see Bachert thread)
"We found our man. He was engaged in a large way of business in the city of London, was married, had a family, and was generally respected. For some time he had been known as eccentric, and various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety"

"He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends"

"In business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it"

With the example of the Butcher Knight it would be possible that "Kosminski" lived and worked at 65 Brick Lane and that he also was engaged in the Butchers Row business (Knight and other Butchers). It would be possible that he left the shop at 65 Brick Lane when the series of murders began (see press reports in October 1888 when a woman reported about a near relative). After this his place of business (Cox) was a certain street (Butchers Row). And he had a brother in Whitechapel.

Again, Knight is an example, nothing else.

But in this example, Aaron Kozminski doesn´t fit. Another "Kosminski" is possible, a Kosminski with a wife and a daughter. Maybe older than Aaron. Maybe an alcoholic, an epileptic, maybe critically ill (not only mentally) who would die soon (see Swanson).

Karsten.

Ok I can see what you are saying. But i've always wondered how one error...ie Swanson said 'he deid soon after' out ways all the other babies in the bath tub. Especially if Anderson was trying to protect or had done a deal with the family in return for their cooperation....surely the 'Died soon afterwards' was a creation to put off other people in the department (Including Abberline) from asking to many questions about the family.

Just on another point wasn't there other speculation about Aaron Kozminski having been in a relationship? It triggers something in the back of my mind..

I think your right to explore all possibilities. Certainly the Butchering connection ahas always interested me as Aarons Grandfather was a Butcher and all the family worked in businesses connected to animal bi-products leather, glue, furs etc

I'll keep my thinking hat on...sorry if not much help at present

Yours jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

I am quite well, thanks Jeff! I hope you are fine.

I'm sorry about that.

In his defense it must be said that he is more critical than it seems. I don't want to say more about this because our relationship is intact, I guess. But he said publicly: "The guy that I bought the letter from actually bought the letter from an antiques company in England". I know that someone is looking for this antiques company to find more letters written by "Dott". This can help to verify the authenticity of the letter.

Matilda! You know, Annie Farmer was known as "Matilda", "Tilly" and "Flossie." Who knows, maybe Dott referred to Annie Farmer (if the letter is genuine) as one of the "poor girls".

No doubt, you remember that we were speculating whether this Matilda (Tilly) could have been Matilda Lubnowski.

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

“Great excitement was caused in the East-end, and throughout the metropolis generally, yesterday by the attempted murder of a woman in the district of the tragedie… is known as Annie, or Matilda, Farmer. She is stated to be a married woman of good appearance and about 34 years of age.” (like Matilda Lubnowski)

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

There was another incident after the Farmer attack and we thought that the press mixed-up these two occurrences. We thought Matilda Lubnowski had a quarrel with her brother Aaron Kozminski. Of course, pure speculation.

The Bachert & The Sauce thread mentiones the Butcher Thomas Davis at 4 Whitechapel High Street ("Butchers Row"). It was the shop of Charles Henry Knight, meat salesman, 4 Whitechapel High Street. There was also another butcher shop of a Charles Knight at 65 Brick Lane. Not far away from the crime scene in Hanbury Street and the Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. These two addresses of a Butcher I find them remarkable. Certainly, not the only Butcher...

Macnaghten and Cox mentioned that a suspect (suspects) occupied several shop in the East End. Sagar mentioned "friends" (not necessarily Jewish friends).

(see Bachert thread)
"We found our man. He was engaged in a large way of business in the city of London, was married, had a family, and was generally respected. For some time he had been known as eccentric, and various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety"

"He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends"

"In business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it"

With the example of the Butcher Knight it would be possible that "Kosminski" lived and worked at 65 Brick Lane and that he also was engaged in the Butchers Row business (Knight and other Butchers). It would be possible that he left the shop at 65 Brick Lane when the series of murders began (see press reports in October 1888 when a woman reported about a near relative). After this his place of business (Cox) was a certain street (Butchers Row). And he had a brother in Whitechapel.

Again, Knight is an example, nothing else.

But in this example, Aaron Kozminski doesn´t fit. Another "Kosminski" is possible, a Kosminski with a wife and a daughter. Maybe older than Aaron. Maybe an alcoholic, an epileptic, maybe critically ill (not only mentally) who would die soon (see Swanson).

Karsten.

Hi Karsten

Just picked this up and rather late so i will respond tomorrow... As you may remember Cat likes eating 'doughnuts'..But i'm sure Tim is a wonderful fellow free of poltergeist..

In the mean time you raise a number of issues that require thought

and i've received some knew information to discuss in private

Good night my friend and yes i read the thread in full


Jeff

[Karsten Giese]

Anyway trusting you are well

I am quite well, thanks Jeff! I hope you are fine.

Unfortunately Karsten...Cat and i had a fall out with Tim and haven't spoken to him in months..

I'm sorry about that.

In his defense it must be said that he is more critical than it seems. I don't want to say more about this because our relationship is intact, I guess. But he said publicly: "The guy that I bought the letter from actually bought the letter from an antiques company in England". I know that someone is looking for this antiques company to find more letters written by "Dott". This can help to verify the authenticity of the letter.

As for the name Matilda being in the public domain some time, i have never disputed this...

What i think i clearly said is the nickname 'Tilly' hadn't ever been widely connected to 'Matilda'...which is a rather different thing...This would have taken considerable research as its not in the current A to Z. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone other than you and i actually ever discussed it before the letter turned up, but i don't keep track on casebook anymore..

Matilda! You know, Annie Farmer was known as "Matilda", "Tilly" and "Flossie." Who knows, maybe Dott referred to Annie Farmer (if the letter is genuine) as one of the "poor girls".

No doubt, you remember that we were speculating whether this Matilda (Tilly) could have been Matilda Lubnowski.

22. November 1888 Morning Advertiser (London)

“Great excitement was caused in the East-end, and throughout the metropolis generally, yesterday by the attempted murder of a woman in the district of the tragedie… is known as Annie, or Matilda, Farmer. She is stated to be a married woman of good appearance and about 34 years of age.” (like Matilda Lubnowski)

"A man was arrested in the East-end early this morning (22. November?) under very suspicious circumstances. Between one and two o’clock a woman, who was in the company with a man in a narrow thoroughfare near Brick-lane, was heard to call "Murder!" and "Police!" loudly. At the moment the man was seen making off at a rapid pace. He was pursued through several streets by the police and detectives who have lately been concentrated in considerable numbers in the neighbourhood, and was captured near Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. The man is reported to have drawn a knife, and made a desperate resistance, but he was eventually overpowered, and conveyed to the Commercial-street station."

There was another incident after the Farmer attack and we thought that the press mixed-up these two occurrences. We thought Matilda Lubnowski had a quarrel with her brother Aaron Kozminski. Of course, pure speculation.

The Bachert & The Sauce thread mentiones the Butcher Thomas Davis at 4 Whitechapel High Street ("Butchers Row"). It was the shop of Charles Henry Knight, meat salesman, 4 Whitechapel High Street. There was also another butcher shop of a Charles Knight at 65 Brick Lane. Not far away from the crime scene in Hanbury Street and the Truman, Hanbury, and Buxton’s brewery. These two addresses of a Butcher I find them remarkable. Certainly, not the only Butcher...

Macnaghten and Cox mentioned that a suspect (suspects) occupied several shop in the East End. Sagar mentioned "friends" (not necessarily Jewish friends).

(see Bachert thread)
"We found our man. He was engaged in a large way of business in the city of London, was married, had a family, and was generally respected. For some time he had been known as eccentric, and various escapades had caused his friends a good deal of anxiety"

"He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends"

"In business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it"

With the example of the Butcher Knight it would be possible that "Kosminski" lived and worked at 65 Brick Lane and that he also was engaged in the Butchers Row business (Knight and other Butchers). It would be possible that he left the shop at 65 Brick Lane when the series of murders began (see press reports in October 1888 when a woman reported about a near relative). After this his place of business (Cox) was a certain street (Butchers Row). And he had a brother in Whitechapel.

Again, Knight is an example, nothing else.

But in this example, Aaron Kozminski doesn´t fit. Another "Kosminski" is possible, a Kosminski with a wife and a daughter. Maybe older than Aaron. Maybe an alcoholic, an epileptic, maybe critically ill (not only mentally) who would die soon (see Swanson).

Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff!

At the end I was rather surprised than disappointed when I read the news article. You know we have been in contact with Tim after he had bought the letter. I gave him a lot of information and the advice to work with people who have the skills to solve the problems. I got to know him as a very nice guy who worked hard on the letter. But I was not satisfied with the result. He criticised Howard and RJ and I think that was wrong. I am very sorry for that. I very interested in people like them. They are always polite, friendly and helpful. They deserve our highest respect. Of course, I am a member of the "Aaron Kozminski- Team". People like Rob House, Chris Phillips, Patricia Marshall and John Malcolm do an excellent job on this matter. Their considerations sound logical. But there is also another side, please take a look at the Bachert & The Sauce thread. In my opinion it is not clear that Kosminski is Aaron Kozminski but, of course, it would be possible. I don´t know whether the letter is genuine or forged. "If the letter is genuine" is the better choice for me at the moment.

Karsten.

Unfortunately Karsten...Cat and i had a fall out with Tim and haven't spoken to him in months...this had nothing to do with the letter...But i am not one for tital tatal (Lets say Cat did some research). Its unfortunate he went to the Daily Mail...this certainly had nothing to do with me, they did however contact me for comment and i told the truth as i always do...The idea for the picture was originally 'mine' (In fact an idea turned down when we made definitive Story) but i have been collecting Koz family photos for years now and was hoping to achieve something far more sophisticated (And was naturally pissed off at someone jumping the gun and doing it badly), purely as a visual devise rather than any real science (Has to be better than the picture they usually use)

Like you as a Kosmologist i believe i think it genuine...but i remain open to FACTS and what research finds without prejudice.

As for the name Matilda being in the public domain some time, i have never disputed this...

What i think i clearly said is the nickname 'Tilly' hadn't ever been widely connected to 'Matilda'...which is a rather different thing...This would have taken considerable research as its not in the current A to Z. In fact I'd be surprised if anyone other than you and i actually ever discussed it before the letter turned up, but i don't keep track on casebook anymore..

And i simply don't think the seller would have gone to all that trouble for £250, it docent make sense.

Anyway trusting you are well

Yours Jef