Kosminski Letter

[Karsten Giese]

Karsten, Jeff....

If you two fellows would like Tim to participate on this thread, you can contact him and let him know bygones are bygones. I hold no grudge. He can post here if he wished.

Just have him email me. Thanks.

That´s very nice, How! I will send him a message.

[Karsten Giese]

I can't think of a Ripper theory based on anything other than speculation.

Maybe more Facts and evidence will emerge, in my experience there is always more..

But in the mean time i think 'good' speculation based on what evidence we have is a reasonable position...I certainly believe advances have been made since Fido and Begg started it in the 1980's have shed more light and i concur with your admiration for those researchers who have achieved it, even if i see little agreement between them exists.

Yours Jeff

Well, Jeff, in this case we can try to prove whether the letter is genuine or fake! We can stop speculating and contacting the best expert we can find.

[Howard Brown]

Karsten, Jeff....

If you two fellows would like Tim to participate on this thread, you can contact him and let him know bygones are bygones. I hold no grudge. He can post here if he wished.

Just have him email me. Thanks.

[Jeff Leahy]

We need facts, evidence. Speculation is not enough in the long run.

I can't think of a Ripper theory based on anything other than speculation.

Maybe more Facts and evidence will emerge, in my experience there is always more..

But in the mean time i think 'good' speculation based on what evidence we have is a reasonable position...I certainly believe advances have been made since Fido and Begg started it in the 1980's have shed more light and i concur with your admiration for those researchers who have achieved it, even if i see little agreement between them exists.

Yours Jeff

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Jeff!

I wish Tim all the best. He did what he could. And he did it with passion and dedication. The future will show whether he was right or not. We all taking our risk, and it is not easy here in the world of ripperology. We need an independent expert opinion, clearly "readable" for everyone. We cannot expect that everyone believes in our interpretation: Jeff & Karsten are right, end of the story! We need facts, evidence. Speculation is not enough in the long run.

[Jeff Leahy]

Let´s wait and see, Jeff! I suppose the story continues... you and me, as people who "want to believe", should bearing in mind that the letter could be a fake. And, while discussing the content, we should use the phrase "if the letter is genuine". And if we are honest, the Kosminski letter has not changed the world of Ripperology. Tim bought the letter and, since then, nothing has really happened. Certainly, he worked hard on the letter though "A good thing takes time", Tim didn´t take the time. Now, we should take a step back. I feel sure we shall get more answers in the future.

I agree Kasten..In my experience these things simply take time to resolve.

I don't entirely agree that it isn't potentially important...It does two important things and I very much doubt if it was forged that the person who did it understood what he/she had done. And i will expand why my instinct says genuine while my professional hat would urge caution.

The most striking element is the word TILLY. I can see little evidence that this had been widely connected to Matilda in the past...It would certainly indicate that if a forgery it was created in recent years probably the last two.

It indicates that this Kozminski must have been Aaron Kozminski.

And the second important element is the date: 12 July 1889.

If genuine this places Kozminski on the street subsequent to the date given by Mcnaughton which leaves only two possibilities. Either MacNaughten was incorrect or as we have speculated Kozminski entered the asylum in March 1889 and was released and back on the streets in three months

So its very important if genuine for two reasons and ironically if its a forgery, then either the forger didn't realise what he was doing or its a very sophisticated forgery...so why sell it for only £250?

OK my instinct: Tim doesn't have the patience required to deal with the object but i think we can all conclude he purchased it in good faith. He took it to a number of experts (Sutherby's) who told him it appeared genuine and the opinion of Peter Bower was the paper is genuine.

I examined the letter which in itself is interesting. Nothing like i'd expected. Its Tiny about 14/15 cm in height and about 12 cm wide. Its tracing paper light and started to crumble even as i unfolded it along the lines to which had been folded suggesting to me 'considerable age'. The writing is done with an italic pen nib and the ink has smudged or blurred in a number of places. The vertical lines have been ruled with a pencil the red horizontal lines are printed in red ink.

A number of small pieces have broken away at the edges of the folds.

Theres also a lot of inconsistency in the letter shapes. Fore instance the 'Y' at the end of the word JENNY loops back up across itself, while the 'Y' in TILLY makes a firm loop but does not come back up the same way as the 'Y's in 'PRAY NIGHTLY' the 'F' in FRUIT and FRIGHT are different

Obviously I'm not an expert but even to my untrained eye its obvious that the writing that has been broken along the fold must have been written before the damaged occurred as it connects directly when magnified in photoshop.

And as Catrin has pointed out it just is so understated. Having studied the Maybrick Diary at a conference and then the Marginalia at Court Yard Studios...Well my gut reaction is that its not a forgery...thats all i can add..Its not a question of wanting or not wanting..that allegation could be laid at everyones door...But i am interested in the truth.

Catrin also concurs that she feels the writer is feminine. Its certainly very familiar in tone and certainly a bizarre creation for a forger to come up with when compared to say the Salamander letters, the Vineland Map or the Hitler Diaries..May be he was simply Gay?

You are of course correct we must remain open minded and see what transpires but i'd be most surprised if the forger comes forward and admits deception.

No doubt it will remain controversial. But for me it will remain another piece of the jigsaw until definitively proven fake.

Yours Jeff

[Karsten Giese]

Hi Karsten

As you are aware Cat also doubts the letter was written by Rev Dott. But she has turned up nothing to the contrary as yet.

At first inspection I agree that the hand writing isn't a good match apart from two register signatures. But as you observe neither of us are experts in this field. And closer examination of various examples shows up another interesting observation, that even within examples there are large variations in letter formation. So it might be possible a hand writing expert could tell us more?

Just a thought

Yours jeff

Let´s wait and see, Jeff! I suppose the story continues... you and me, as people who "want to believe", should bearing in mind that the letter could be a fake. And, while discussing the content, we should use the phrase "if the letter is genuine". And if we are honest, the Kosminski letter has not changed the world of Ripperology. Tim bought the letter and, since then, nothing has really happened. Certainly, he worked hard on the letter though "A good thing takes time", Tim didn´t take the time. Now, we should take a step back. I feel sure we shall get more answers in the future.

[Karsten Giese]

I think the reference to "physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible" probably means he had suffered from a venereal disease, and blamed the woman he'd contracted it from, while denying any responsibility himself.

Thanks Chris! Yes, it seems to be the most likely explanation for this... a guy like Jacob Levy...

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Chris! I trust in your opinion as I always do. Tim sent me handwriting samples of Patrick Dott and in my view (of course, I´m not an expert) there were no similarities between them and the Dott signature in the letter. And I thought Dott is female, not male. I also had my doubts about Patrick Dott as the writter of the letter but couldn´t change Tim´s view. Somehow I have the feeling that the letter finds its way to Russell Edwards.
.

Hi Karsten

As you are aware Cat also doubts the letter was written by Rev Dott. But she has turned up nothing to the contrary as yet.

At first inspection I agree that the hand writing isn't a good match apart from two register signatures. But as you observe neither of us are experts in this field. And closer examination of various examples shows up another interesting observation, that even within examples there are large variations in letter formation. So it might be possible a hand writing expert could tell us more?

Just a thought

Yours jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

I think the question to ask is why the faker shouldn't have used the name "Tilly". He might have used it just because it was the short form of a common Victorian name, without thinking of any Matilda in particular. Or perhaps he did have Matilda Lubnowski Cohen in mind, and used the short form of her name, as we know two of her and her husband's nieces did. Either way, I don't see any reason to suppose there was any connection with the discussion on jtrforums.

Hi Chris

I guess i just reason that people always have a reason for action. What you are suggesting is this is purely coincidence. And for me thats not logical. If the letter is a forgery then considerable time and effort went into creating it, so considerable thought must have gone into the use of TILLY rather than Matilda if that was the forgers intension, as Tilly had never really been publicly connected to Matilda, apart from a few obscure posts by Karsten and myself (I'm happy to be corrected Karsten).

Of course I'm fully aware that statistically coincidence happens far more frequently than most people believe. Apparently you only require 23 people in a room for two to share a birthday.

But the 'Tilly' paradox flags the letter up as 'interesting' as far as I'm concerned.

Pretty much no amount for physical testing will change the 'provence' which everyone accepts is poor. So logic dictates further investigation into it's content.

But until proof is found either way, as with the Outfield yard photo, we should keep looking.

Yours jeff

[Chris Phillips]

Chris, I don't know about you, but this reminds me of Macnaghten:

London Evening News And Post, 13. September 1889:

"The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."

Macnaghten:

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, & resident in Whitechapel. This man became insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies; he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889. There were many circs. connected with this man which made him a strong suspect."

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, with strong homicidal tendencies. He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889. This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

Forgive me if I misinterpreting this but one might think that a suspect (Kosminski?) was confined to his room sometimes. The reason? His physical suffering ("...indulgence in solitary vices"/ Masturbation). Kosminski also was Macnaghten´s "second man".

I think the reference to "physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible" probably means he had suffered from a venereal disease, and blamed the woman he'd contracted it from, while denying any responsibility himself.

[Chris Phillips]

Your simply miss understanding the problem we are trying to figure OUT!

The question is about what a potential forger would have imagined?

And.. at what time when that forger would have considered his forgery would he have considered the name TILLY? unless he was following an extreme couple of loon balls called Jeff and Karsten on JtRFormums..

He would have forged an obvious conection like Matilda and pushed the forgery price into the thousands? He failed...so go figure

But nothing makes sense..yours j



Yours Jeff and Cat

I think the question to ask is why the faker shouldn't have used the name "Tilly". He might have used it just because it was the short form of a common Victorian name, without thinking of any Matilda in particular. Or perhaps he did have Matilda Lubnowski Cohen in mind, and used the short form of her name, as we know two of her and her husband's nieces did. Either way, I don't see any reason to suppose there was any connection with the discussion on jtrforums.

[Karsten Giese]

And there we have it Karsten!

AND I BEKIEVE STILL IS

MacNaughten had know clue where Kozminski was after March 1889

That is the answer to the entire mystery

AND I BELEIVE STILL IS

because MacNaughten DIDNT KNOW he didn't know what happened to Kozminsdki after this date..March 1889

MacNaughten had no clue what happened between March 1889 and when he wrote the report in 1894..because that was his info

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff!

Well, I compared Macnaghten´s statements with an article dated September 1889. Macnaghten stated "he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889" & "and I believe still is" in 1894. It doesn´t mean that Kosminski was never released from this asylum. Cox said: "but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey". See also: "he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will".

As your friend, I ask you to remember that the people here are very nice, and they deserve our appreciation not only for their good work. Without them we would not be here now.

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

(and I believe still is)

And there we have it Karsten!

AND I BEKIEVE STILL IS

MacNaughten had know clue where Kozminski was after March 1889

That is the answer to the entire mystery

AND I BELEIVE STILL IS

because MacNaughten DIDNT KNOW he didn't know what happened to Kozminsdki after this date..March 1889

THAT IS THE FUCKING ANSWER!

He simply worked from a file created up to that date..when making his memoranda..

MacNaughten had no clue what happened between March 1889 and when he wrote the report in 1894..because that was his info

Yours Jeff

[Karsten Giese]

... because after six years it's still not easy to get at the facts behind the claims Russell Edwards made in 2014.

Chris, I don't know about you, but this reminds me of Macnaghten:

London Evening News And Post, 13. September 1889:

"The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."

Macnaghten:

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, & resident in Whitechapel. This man became insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies; he was removed to a lunatic asylum about March 1889. There were many circs. connected with this man which made him a strong suspect."

2"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, with strong homicidal tendencies. He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889. This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

Forgive me if I misinterpreting this but one might think that a suspect (Kosminski?) was confined to his room sometimes. The reason? His physical suffering ("...indulgence in solitary vices"/ Masturbation). Kosminski also was Macnaghten´s "second man".