Charles Who?

[Debra Arif]

How could Maria Lechmere have married Thomas Cross, in the first quarter of 1858; only to have then baptized her two children, Emily Charlotte and Charles Allen Lechmere, in what would appear to be the 'presence' of her husband, John Allen Lechmere?

Hi Colin,
Sorry to butt in, but..
Is it possible that John Allen Lechmere was not 'present' though, and he was just named as a parent?
John could have been dead by the time his son Charles was baptised?

[Colin Roberts]

Thanks, for the input, Chris, Robert, and Debs!

By looking forward to the 1881 census, we can see that Maria married Joseph Forsdike:
1881
23 Pinchin Street, St George in the East
Head: Joseph Forsdike aged 65 born Suffolk - Shoemaker
Wife: Maria Forsdike aged 55 born Herts (sic) - Dressmaker
Grand daughter:
Mary Lechmere aged 6 born St George East
Who this child is is not clear
Joseph Forsdike died as follows:
1889 Quarter 4
Joseph Forsdike
St George East
Aged 74
Maria Forsdike's death is listed as follows:
1901 Quarter 4
St George in the East
Maria Louisa Forsdike
Aged 77
Maria is listed in 1891 as follows:
18 St George Street, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 65 born Hereford - Horse flesh dealer (Cat)
Grandchild:
Mary Jane Lechmere aged 16 born St George East
and in 1901 as follows:
18 Old Gravel Lane, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 76 born Hereford - Corn chandler
Servant:
Jessie Furnell aged 14 born St George East
Marriage of Mary Jane Lechmere:
1899 Stepney
Married Harry Alfred Goodson
In the 1901 census the couple are listed at the same address as her grandmother:
18 Old Gravel Lane
Head: Harry A Goodson aged 25 born St George East - Printer's compositor
Wife: Mary J Goodson aged 26 born St George East
Child:
Alfred F aged 9 months born St George East

(My Emphasis)

"Who this child is is not clear"

Interestingly (Curiously), she was a daughter of Charles Lechmere.


Marriage Certificate: Harry Alfred Goodson, Mary Jane Lechmere; 11 August, 1899 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

In 1901 the family are at 24 Doveton St (RG13/331/98/27) but by 1911 Charles has become a shopkeeper (general shop and sweetstuffs) living at 24 Carlton Rd MEOT.

Actually, Robert, his move to Carlton Road, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town, occurred much sooner than "by 1911".

He is listed in a 1902 Street Directory, as a "grocer", at 24 Carlton Road.

Ironically, the same page of the directory lists a 'Charles Cross', at 88 Carlton Hill, Parish of St. Marylebone.

It looks as though Charles's son Thomas Allen was killed in the Bethnal Green tube disaster.

Can you expound, Robert?

Is it possible that John Allen Lechmere was not 'present' though, and he was just named as a parent?
John could have been dead by the time his son Charles was baptised?

But, in that event, Debs, I would think that the stated reference to 'Quality, Trade, or Profession' would be 'Deceased', rather than "Boot Maker".

~~~

Admittedly, we have very little reason to cast a suspicious eye, upon Charles Lechmere.

But, his use of the name 'Cross', throughout the course of the investigation into the death of Mary Ann Nichols, would appear to be, not only inexplicable, but, plainly and simply bizarre.

I don't need to be told that most East-Enders used aliases, or anything else, as nonsensical.

If such an assertion is to be used, as some sort of 'excuse' for Lechmere's behavior, then it should be accompanied, by supportive statistical data.

And, in any case, the 'East End' is hardly a relevant factor.

I'm sure that most of us have given a false name, to some sort of authority, at some point, in our lives.

Very few Americans can honestly state that they have been chucked out of the Shed, while watching a Second Division Chelsea compete against the likes of Shrewsbury Town, Bristol Rovers, or Leyton Orient, in front of crowds of no more than ten or twelve thousand supporters. Well, I can! Not that that amounts to a Gоddamned thing; but, I can. And, in each instance, in which I was dragged out of Chelsea's home end, by a constable, or two, I invariably gave a quickly contrived 'alias', and false address.

Boots, braces, cropped hair, and a Septic Tank accent!
:laugh:

But, even though I am neither an East-Ender, nor, for that matter, a working class Victorian, I have given false names, to certain authorities, when confronted with the feeling that I had something to hide.

Did Charles Lechmere, perhaps, have something to hide?

~~~

An interesting feature of Charles Lechmere, is the fact that while he lived outside of the observed parameters, of the 'killing field' of 'Jack the Ripper', during the so-called 'Autumn of Terror', he traversed the entirety of that 'killing field', to and fro, as a matter of daily routine. And, the direction of that traversal precipitated his passage, through the center of the 'killing field', along the axis of greatest aggregate dispersion, of the applicable murder-sites.

And, for those that don't believe that 'Jack the Ripper' would have dared to venture south of the Aldgate High Street / Whitechapel High Street / Whitechapel Road thoroughfare, without Mommy and Daddy, to hold his hand, as he entered the uncertain realm of the Parish of St. George in the East: Well, guess where he grew up, and spent most of his life, prior to the latter half of 1888. Guess where his mother, along with one of his daughters, apparently lived, during the latter half of 1888.

Etc.

[Colin Roberts]

Boots, braces, cropped hair, and a Septic Tank accent!
:laugh:

My friends, at that time, would often mock me, by saying things like ...

"Gaawddamn it, my name's Caawlin Raawberts!"

"Hey, Caawlin! You want some coooookies?"

... in their best Cowboy accents.
:laugh:

[Colin Roberts]

Boots, braces, cropped hair, and a Septic Tank accent!
:laugh:

I suppose I should translate, for my Septic brethren.

Dr. Marten boots (8 eyelet; 'cherry red', i.e. cordovan), suspenders, a shaven head, and a Yank accent.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Colin

This should link you to the appropriate page of the victims list :

http://www.stairwaytoheavenmemorial.org/gpage7.html

[Robert Linford]

Genealogy has all kinds of twists and turns :

http://www.eastlondonforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10870

[Colin Roberts]

This should link you to the appropriate page of the victims list :

http://www.stairwaytoheavenmemorial.org/gpage7.html

Genealogy has all kinds of twists and turns :

http://www.eastlondonforum.com/viewt...hp?f=6&t=10870

Thanks, Robert!

[Colin Roberts]

From the other forum we find that Charles Lechmere moved to Carlton Road – about five minutes walk from Doveton Street around 1902 and ran a grocery shop.

Interestingly (to me anyway) I was once stopped by the police minding my own businessish outside the Carlton (closed now I think, on the northern corner of Carlton Road by the railway arch through to Morpeth Street) and, for my own reasons at the time I gave a false name. It wasn’t an alias, just a false name.

On the subject of aliases, Cross was a family man in regular employment. Prostitutes and criminals often had aliases – but I don’t think ‘normal’ people did.

Here’s a picture which may be of minor interest to those researchers on the other forum.

--- Click Here, to View the Original Post, in Casebook.org ---

"On the subject of aliases, Cross was a family man in regular employment. Prostitutes and criminals often had aliases – but I don’t think ‘normal’ people did."

I am certainly inclined to agree!

~~~

As noted, by Robert: Thomas Allen Lechmere, his wife, Florence Rosetta, and their son, Thomas Charles, each perished during the Bethnal Green Tube Disaster, of 1943.

[Edward Stow]

My good friend Christer Holmgren had a lengthy Jack the Ripper article published in Sweden - today I think.
Here's the link - if you can read Swedish. Nice graphics:

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/kultur--nojen/var-vittnet-mordaren/

[Monty]

Its good to see Christer putting his enforced spare time to good use. I'm surprised he hasn't moved to this site after his suspension as you have Edward.

Looks a great piece....Is there an English translation?

Monty
:)

[Dave James]

Monty,

If you use Google Chrome, it will translate the article (not perfectly, but readable).

[Monty]

Thank you David.

Monty
:)

[Edward Stow]

He said he'd give me a translation - I'll post it up when he does.
As for Christer migrating here - be careful what you wish for!

[Colin Roberts]

Its good to see Christer putting his enforced spare time to good use. I'm surprised he hasn't moved to this site after his suspension as you have Edward.

You're not gloating, are you Neil?

When I took a stand against Mei Trow's attempted revision of the history of the English Poor Law; his matter-of-fact statement that 'Whitechapel and Spitalfields' were "ninety percent Jewish in 1888"; his placement of Robert Mann's childhood home in the wrong Hope Street, which in turn was in the wrong Civil Parish; etc. … where were you?

Accusing me of having an "obsession with Mei Trow", that's where.

Have Edward and Christer twisted the truth and created a number of half-truths, and in so doing cheapened their case against Charles Lechmere? I suppose it could be said that they have.

But they have also enlightened us with new perspective and information: Something that Mei Trow never did when presenting his sophomoric case against Robert Mann.

Mei Trow cheapened the entire field of 'Ripper' studies.

Have Edward and Christer done as much? I don't believe that they have.

Having said that, … I hope you are well.

[Howard Brown]

Steady on folks....