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  • #91
    Hi Rob, my manuscript is currently over 400 pages long, about 180 pages of that are entries based on primary sources regarding Stephenson's life and the people around him. This is information gleaned from census entries, polling books, trade directories, bmd details, magistrate papers, business papers, customs house documents.

    Furthermore, the list also includes articles from newspapers, law books, and other sources from the period.

    Interweaved with this are the articles and stories written by Stephenson.
    Everything is thoroughly sourced and referenced.

    This time line is then dissected in individual chapters, looking at Stephenson and:
    Mabel Collins
    Vittoria Cremers
    Aleister Crowley
    Helena Blavatsky
    Rev Prest
    Rev McAuslane
    Bishop Westcott
    Dr Allen
    Bulwer Lytton
    Annie Deary
    Thomas Roots
    Alex Fowler
    George Marsh
    William T Stead
    Dr kelburne King
    Victoria Woodhull
    Grant Richards
    The Stephenson family
    The Dawber family
    The Richardson family
    The Lord family
    The Gray family

    There are massive chapters looking at the:
    The Hospital stay
    The Customs House records
    The shooting at Flamborough
    The Dead or Alive story
    The Pompadour Cosmetics
    The name change
    The medical connection
    The Garibaldi campaign
    The writings of Stephenson
    Stephenson in Bridlington
    Stephenson in Brighton
    Stephenson in 1889

    Not to mention the chapters on:
    The Stephenson family 1800-1840
    The Stephenson family 1840-1860
    The Dawber family 1700-1840
    The Dawber family 1840-1860
    The rise if the Stephenson family empire
    The rise of the Dawber family empire
    The Stephenson family and crime
    The Dawber family and crime
    The Stephenson family finances
    The Dawber family finances

    And finally chapters on:
    O'Donnell and Stephenson
    Harris and Stephenson
    Edwards and Stephenson
    Crowley and Stephenson
    Diosy and Stephenson
    Recent articles and opinions of Stephenson.

    Comment


    • #92
      Good to see Debs back on the thread with more goods ( A palindrome of sorts...).

      Nina dug into this Dickinson guy ( Hope that sounds right...) last night and it seems he was an inventive man...she'll be looking into him further.

      Rob...without trying to sound like I'm looking to get the last word...I hope that you and Debs or anyone don't think I'm personally "out to get" any of the comrades in the field by coming across as someone who automatically dismisses what others have provided from the "pro-Donston" camp. Thats not true. Its that there have been scores, not one or two mistakes, but scores of attributes affixed to RDS which turned him into someone that he was not by our research and because of that fact, its become an inclination on my part to immediately question anything which anyone says about him.

      Let me put it this way:

      Take one example....say the "trip to the US" that Cremers claimed D'Onston told her about...that gold rush episode which can also be found in the True Face.

      The pro camp accepts that it occurred without equivocation. They use the episode to demonstrate a quality....violence...that RDS doesn't display in real life once... in the real study of the man.

      We, meaning Mike and myself, dispute that trip since the time it encompassed would overlap into events in RDS' life in the UK. If it went down as the pro-camp says....again only on the word of Cremers...RDS would have had to leave Hull on the 31st of Dec in 1868 and make it back in time to be on the census in the UK for early 1871...which, going on memory here for the moment, was physically impossible. Yet, it is somewhat of an article of faith that RDS did trek to the States...something with no basis to believe whatsoever. Thats just one of the major problems that existed.

      I'm off on my horse to find some more Halse for that thread.
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      • #93
        Originally posted by How Brown
        The typhoid issue was brought up by ME some time back as was the thread I made here and elsewhere on the "Davis Ward Hoax". I was wrong...but neither of these issues assailed any theorist or researcher, only the known liar,plagiarist, and story telling D'Onston himself.

        How, and that was a good example of how co-operation and discussion can progress something.
        What I have had the most problem with is that recently the Pompadour Cosmetiques Ltd. papers from the NA suddenly have become conclusive proof of something. I may be wrong here but aren't they the same papers posted last year, on this very thread and discussed by you, John and Robert? I can't recall them being held up as any sort of proof of anything at that time....if they are the same papers that is, as it's never been explained if they are or not, or if they are a fuller version or what.
        We all then had an interesting and friendly discussion on timelines and on Rob's find that there were no directory entries for the company supposedly run by Collins, Cremers and Stephenson....but neither was there an entry for the Pompadour Cosmetique Ltd.'s owner, H.Y. Dickinson.
        I can't honestly see why suddenly the nexy day, when a reply saying more or less exactly the same came from the Guildhall about the directory entries, that this was perceived as some sort of proof of anything and that discussion of the adverts for a Baker Street company just didn't happen. It was like this just didn't figure in to the argument at all. As yet there is no proof that the 3 were involved in the set up at Baker Street, but there seems to be a fair bit of circumstantial evidence to show it and further constructive discussion might prove it one way or another.

        Comment


        • #94
          Dear Debs:

          "What I have had the most problem with is that recently the Pompadour Cosmetiques Ltd. papers from the NA suddenly have become conclusive proof of something."

          Prior to the recent discussion ,without going back and seeing what was said by whom on what area of the matter back then...considering that anti-suspect theorists aren't the ones who have the burden of proving their cause and should they change their tune at some point, it doesn't add or subtract from the original "pro-argument"...only putting a little egg on the face of someone hellbent to disassemble the pro argument ( That would be me,dear Debs !!!) by straightening things out....let me say this:

          At first, I was convinced that the non-suspect related data on the PCC demonstrated yet another lie made by Cremers. Stephenson, at no time, ever mentions the PCC. Now, due to your efforts, we know that Collins had a hand in the PCC for certain. We do not, and I hope Rob understands my point here, we do not know whether the logo was already a design that was utilized by whomever was involved in the PCC...and that no one from the PCC "created" it.

          I felt that like the Davis Ward thread...which I was ultimately wrong about, but not assailing or castigating any modern theorist, since it was RDS who mentioned being in the Davis Ward...and as mentioned, I do not trust virtually anything said about or by him in the first place.....I felt that this was another fabrication on the part of Cremers that the THREE of them shared stock in the PCC.

          It was due to your work and Rob's that we found out some facts about the wards, typhoid patients, and other little tidbits....all adding up to a better understanding of the issue and frankly,Debs....I'm glad I set myself up for the egg toss. It wasn't one of my occasional, intentionally initiated threads where I try to try people's patience or to get them to actually do something in an area of the Case....but a mistake on my part that worked out well. I don't care if I make a mistake. I don't care if I get called on the proverbial carpet. As long as people keep on keepin' on in regard to RDS, I'll wear the fool's hat. I'd rather get corrected on something than have that something never discussed at all. In the long run, people learned about some new things and touched base....like you,Rob,me,Mike,and anyone else reading this post has....all due to a simple non-suspect candidacy issue.

          What the PCC papers could have proved back in the original 2007 or 2008 posts...was simply that the Cremers rendition of events in that one area were fabrications....and for me, on the sly and on the side, further evidence that Cremers was not alone in the development of those memoirs. The burden of proof is on ME to show that this is true...and I was actually hoping that nothing did materialize to show that even Collins had a part in it. However, now it has...again due to you. Not for some vested interest, but because the Cremers memoirs...the real area of this whole matter I had interest in....is something I have been mulling over since 2007 as a not entirely kosher item.

          Your data shows that I was wrong...and they benefit Stephensonian studies. I'm happy you pursued this and hopefully...now...we can all keep at this area, since as I originally responded to you before....it helps specifically in the development of an 1890-1892 timeline for the three individuals.

          Kiss for Maisie...and one for her Mommy.
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          • #95
            How, I'm understanding the situation better now, thanks.
            And If I come across anything relevant in the future I will continue to post it.
            To continue with something else for the minute that I mentioned earlier, does anyone know what the 'serious indisposition' was about that prevented her from contributing to the magazine in October 1888? Does this date to the time of a nervous breakdown I've seen mention of on the boards? I'm not sure of the dates that was said to have occured. Thanks.

            Comment


            • #96
              She did get ill at some point Debs, but I am pretty certain this was after 1888.

              Comment


              • #97
                Debs:

                ...I also owe you a hug for reminding me of something long forgotten that I neglected to post before....look for an upcoming thread on....W.B.Yeats & Cremers.

                Now on to your question....

                It is quite likely that she did suffer a stress related illness, such as a nervous breakdown in 1888. We know Cremers arrived at the Landsdowne Rd. headquarters of Blavatsky's in '88 and that she moved in. She was informed by Blavatsky that Collins was on her way out for practicing 'tantric magic' with one or more of the Keightley Bros. Whether she was in violation of the "rules" these yoyo's allowed to have foisted upon themselves ( Note...its just one of several heterosexual liasons Collins is alleged or did engage in subsequent to her husband's death...something we chatted about the other day,Debs..)...it is noteworthy to mention that in May of 1888, Annie Besant became the ad hoc ( I used it correctly this time !!!) right hand woman for the gargantuan guru Blavatsky and placing Collins' role in that coterie in a new light and one of lesser importance.

                A year later in June ( 15th to be exact) of 1889....Collins' sister Ellen Hopkins wrote a letter to the spiritualist journal, Light, stating that her sister was too ill to speak for herself in response to another issue involving these Idle Rich devotees of theosophy.

                I think that its worth mentioning that in July of 1889, Collins was "well enough" to have a portrait made of her in Kensington by the painter Louise Jopling at approximately the same time Collins was still suffering a stress related illness or a nervous breakdown.....and the same Jopling that Collins introduced in the aftermath of the 1888 problems Collins and Blavatsky had with each other.

                In other words, despite Collins suffering mental health problems because of Blavatsky's demands...she still introduces someone to Blavatsky at or around the same period of time.

                Debs...there is such a need for someone to sit down and collate all the dates and try to make sense of these little stories...that its at best, a good guess that she did suffer a nervous breakdown and thats the reason she used the term "serious indisposition".

                Personally Debs...I think all of these Idle Rich dabblers in Hindu mystical bullshit were nuts....but some less nuts or less affected by their nuttiness.
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                • #98
                  Other Terms for Typhoid Fever

                  How asked me to post this here; it's an excerpt from a post I made on the Mary Ann Cotton thread.

                  I was curious because on the Death Certificate of one of Cotton's poisoning victims, 'Typhoid Fever' was listed as the cause of death, whereas the majority of her poisoning victims had their cause of death recorded as
                  'Gastric Fever'... Typhoid Fever didn't sound like a poisoning case.


                  < Mary Ann Cotton Thread:
                  http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....2837#post82837

                  I looked up 'Gastric Fever' in some medical dictionaries; in the 19th C. it was a catch-all term for severe stomach pains accompanied by fever, etc., which frequently ended in death.
                  I also found out that it was a term used for some types of Typhoid Fever:

                  (Med.) GASTRIC FEVER: a fever attended with prominent gastric symptoms;
                  - a name applied to certain forms of typhoid fever;
                  also, to catarrhal inflammation of the stomach attended with fever.


                  (Don't know if that's of any use to you in your D'Onston research, but I hope so. -B.)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Thanks Archaic....I'll move the post elsewhere...and I did ask you to place it here.

                    I wanted to add on to the previous remarks about typhoid...and that Donston... who was in the Davis Ward..which housed typhoid patients...also had what has been described as stomach ailments. Nothing monumental...don't know what to make of it at the moment...but I thank Archaic for finding that.
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                    • Originally posted by How Brown View Post
                      Thanks Archaic....I'll move the post elsewhere...and I did ask you to place it here.

                      I wanted to add on to the previous remarks about typhoid...and that Donston... who was in the Davis Ward..which housed typhoid patients...also had what has been described as stomach ailments. Nothing monumental...don't know what to make of it at the moment...but I thank Archaic for finding that.

                      How, another name for Typhoid or Typhoid fever was also 'Enteric Fever' (as Jonathon Evas told Mike too I think when he visited the archives at the LH) The Currie ward also housed Enteric Fever patients. I have a list of patients on Currie ward in 1908, among them is at least one Enteric fever patient alongside the other patients who had a variety of illnesses. As far as I know, Typhoid, Enteric fever etc. is caused by the Salmonella bug isn't it?

                      Comment


                      • Debs:

                        Thanks for mentioning what Mr. J.Evans told Mike back in 2007 about enteric fever. I had forgotten that.

                        One of the physical quirks or conditions RDS is said to have had was that he seldom ate, which can be found in the literature....and again this is coming from Cremers. The mention of the "Chinese slug", which is either a bullet from a Chinese slug gun ( assuming that they were around back in the mid 1800's).......or the Chinese slug snake...is found in the literature attributable to RDS in that circumstance. I don't know what to make of this,Debs...and it might even be some colloquialism for an entirely different thing altogether.

                        I know that many people who consume alcohol can go long periods without eating and so can people who ingest drugs.

                        I wouldn't be surprised if RDS's breakdown in health had something to do with his digestive system or from catching something...either way, being in the ward(s) where both of these diseases were treated leads me to think his 134 days in the LH had something to do with his lack of recuperative powers ( He was 47 in 1888 and if the stories of his eating like a bird are true, he may have been weaker than the average Rippe...whoops...man his age.

                        I'll look into this Debs...and thanks again.
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                        • Our other ace lady researcher on this thread, Archaic, is on the prowl for the term that I know I saw before in regard to "Sudden Death" that dealt with the gruel like foodstuff they fed patients. Its either buried somewhere on one of my computers or I lost it. However,and only because we got to talking about the Wards at the LH.... Archaic offered this suggestion...

                          The gruel reference sounds like it could be a form of food-poisoning or a food-born bacteria, which was horrendously common and could kill an already weakened person very fast.
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                          • Old Terms For Diseases

                            How, I found it and already PM'd it to you.

                            c.1880, "Sudden Death" was a derisive term used for a type of plain Boiled Pudding.

                            It was also a Gambling term for deciding something by tossing a coin once.

                            It was also a term applied to deaths caused by Heart Failure, Stroke, etc.

                            > On my 'Bollards' thread I have posted a number of good online references for archaic, synonymous and colloquial Disease names, including the terms most often used on old Death Certificates. They make for very interesting reading.

                            Did you know that 'Chorea' is the term for "Death by Dancing Madness" ?

                            Disease Terms, Post #163 at http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7433

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                            • I've already mentioned it on the resurrected thread on Sudden Death.

                              Great stuff....and let me just say that the term sudden death does not have anything to do with a card game...which is how I remember the term was supposed to be applicable to RDS.

                              Regardless, this is excellent,Archy.
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                              • (How, below I just copied the post I put on your 'Sudden Death' thread, as it really IS a card-playing term too)


                                Howard, did you say you were looking for a Card-Game related usage of 'Sudden Death'?

                                Because it's another name for the Poker game called 5-Card Stud.

                                There's an older usage referring to Whist played with a special scoring system.

                                You can find these terms in Hoyle's Modern Encyclopedia Of Card Games:
                                http://books.google.com/books?id=gUR...gbs_navlinks_sbe

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