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  • #16
    Hi AP,

    I grabbed this from the trial transcript—

    "FREDERICK KEARLEY, examined by Mr. GILL —

    I am a retired detective-inspector. I examined the documents left behind by Taylor at 3 Chapel Street . . ."

    Regards.

    Simon

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    • #17
      Such a good man should never have been casted to the damned wolves of the Yard. It were an indecency.

      “All trials are trials for one’s life, just as all sentences are sentences of death, and three times I have been tried. The first time I left the box to be arrested, the second time to be led back to the house of detention, and the third time to pass into prison for two years. Society as we have constituted it, will have no place for me, has none to offer; but Nature, whose sweet rains fall on just and unjust alike, will have clefts in the rocks where I may hide, and secret valleys in whose silence I may weep undisturbed. She will hang with stars so that I may walk abroad in the darkness without stumbling, and send the wind over my footprints so that none may track me to my hurt: she will cleanse me in great waters, and with bitter herbs make me whole.” [Oscar Wilde, De Profundis]

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      • #18
        Hi AP,

        Indecent indeed.

        It's interesting in our more enlightened times that such a shameful episode as the Wilde trial is nowhere to be found on the Old Bailey website.

        There are some weasel words about its absence on the FAQ page.

        Regards,

        Simon

        Comment


        • #19
          Indeed, Simon
          and it also leads one to the conclusion that Tumblety was perhaps offered the opportunity to flee whilst he still could... but not from a British port, eh? That would not have looked too kosher.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi AP,

            Hence Dr T not taking the direct route from Liverpool or Southampton.

            That makes sense. But there's still the question of him being allowed to board a cross-channel ferry at Folkestone. Would that have constituted fleeing from a British port?

            The whole episode is as bent as a nine-bob note.

            Regards,

            Simon

            Comment


            • #21
              Valid and good point, Simon, as Channel ports are closely watched by the police whenever a fugitive is, or was, on the run... but was Tumblety on the run?
              I don't think so.
              If an APB had been issued for Tumblety he would have been tumbled at the Channel ports, as he wasn't he would have been accepted as just another 'day tripper', which is, and was the main pedestrian traffic of the Channel ports.
              Do we actually know that Tumblety employed the Channel ports for such purpose, Simon?
              I would have thought that it would have been far more comfortable for the old boy to have taken the daily ferry service available then directly in the Whitechapel Docks.
              I posted details of this service some years ago on the boards.
              It is also worth considering the efforts that the Met was going to at this exact time to painstakingly check the baggage and credentials of every single American coming or leaving the port of Liverpool, there's a mepo reference to this.
              It wouldn't have done to have Tumblety busted by the ordinary Met whilst being sent on his way by the secret squirrel.

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              • #22
                A.P. or Simon:

                One fairly easy question for either of you would be this:

                If they really wanted Tumbelty for evading his court appearance and did suspect him in London for the WM...why would American police officials not comply with the British desires?

                I'm like a lot of other folks in that I've heard about extradition issues...blah blah blah...but what are your feelings on this.

                It makes no sense to me that the US would not snatch the big fruitcake up in a New York minute and jettison his "murderous" ass outta the country.
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                • #23
                  Hi Howard,

                  In an attempt to answer your excellent question—

                  The LVP cops on both sides of the Atlantic could arrest who they wanted when they wanted. It's the same today. There's always some legal holding tactic.

                  Dr T slipping through the fingers of the Met and Special Branch and making it all the way by transatlantic steamer from Le Havre to New York under an assumed name [while hiding in his stateroom for the duration of the voyage] is an unlikely scenario to say the least.

                  How would you feel if you had read it in a detective novel "The Mysterious Doctor Tumblety", or seen it in a movie of the same name?

                  New York World, 4th December 1888—

                  "When the French line steamer La Bretagne, from Havre, came to her dock at 1:30 Sunday afternoon two keen-looking men pushed through the crowd and stood on either side of the gangplank. They glanced impatiently at the passengers until a big, fine-looking man hurried across the deck and began to descend. He had a heavy, fierce-looking mustache, waxed at the ends; his face was pale and he looked hurried and excited. He wore a dark blue ulster, with belt buttoned. He carried under his arm two canes and an umbrella fastened together with a strap."

                  There's no mistaking a character like that.

                  New York World, 4th December 1888 [same newspaper, same day]—

                  "He must have kept himself very quiet on the La Bretagne, for a number of passengers who were interviewed could not remember having seen anyone answering his description."

                  Ergo! He must have hid in his stateroom.

                  Why didn't they interview any of the ship's crew? Frank Townsend couldn't have survived a 10 day transatlantic voyage without room service, laundry services or hot water for shaving or a bath.

                  By now [if you're anything like me], you would have ripped "The Mysterious Doctor Tumblety" to shreds whilst casting aspersions on the author's birthright and damning his contempt for his readers' intelligence, or would have thrown your can of beer at the screen whilst screaming similar profanities about the script writer and director.

                  Yet history demands that we believe this crock of sh*t.

                  Oh, puhleeze!

                  Let's continue to throw beer cans, rotten eggs and cabbages at Tumblety.

                  Regards,

                  Simon
                  Last edited by Simon Wood; April 27, 2009, 02:15 PM. Reason: spolling

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                  • #24
                    'Yet history demands that we believe this crock of sh*t.'

                    I'd rather say, Simon, that history demands an answer from those that started this crock of shite,

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thanks a lot Simon...and you too A.P.

                      One of the two primary reasons I have thought little of his candidacy is within the question I asked you,Simon and your response. Regardless of any provincialistic feelings the US had towards the UK in 1888 and vice versa...and we know well of the shitty treatment the British police in general were accorded by headline hungry, eager beaver US newspapers in at least one of the two most populated US cities ( Philadelphia,being second in population,does not appear to share the same sentiments that New York papers did) with mocking tones belittling the efforts of U.K. powers that be and their men in blue...and regardless of any jurisdictional balliwicks that could not be crossed....I find it neigh on impossible to believe that had the police in the Britain felt Tumbelty had murdered anyone...much less as being the Whitechapel Murderer...and conveyed this belief to American authorities, that the American authorities would not comply for good reason ( To do the right godda_ned thing) or even a "bad" reason ( to show up those knuckledraggin' British police).

                      Forget all the minor elements of the Tumbelty saga...those elements which make him look and seem suspicious and have yet to be verified...which leads me to the second of the two primary reasons I have for some time now thought little of his candidacy:

                      What chance in hell was there that a British paper,such as the Star or Stead's Pall Mall Gazette with their fangs sharpened on a 24 hour basis for anything to belittle Warren, the police, and the "establishment" up until Warren's retirement to not pounce on this bail jumping and present it to their readers and what chance was there that subsequent to his bail jumping that a "secret"....a "secret" that a very viable suspect in the Case had bolted, arrived in the States and was gabbing about being suspected in London...could be kept secret? 1 in a Million,perhaps?

                      No offense to those who believe in Tumbelty's candidacy or those who research this extraordinary character,whatsoever.

                      Any of you who wish to counter the above,please feel free to do so.

                      Back to you A.P. & Simon....
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by How Brown View Post

                        No offense to those who believe in Tumbelty's candidacy or those who research this extraordinary character,whatsoever.

                        Any of you who wish to counter the above,please feel free to do so.

                        Back to you A.P. & Simon....
                        Can I sneak in one more question ?

                        Irregardless of Tumbelty-as-Ripper, do researchers feel there was indeed a thick file on Dr. T at the Yard ?

                        My gut tells me there was.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Bob

                          For what its worth, I don't think it really matters if you and I do ( I do )...because Littlechild did remember him 25 years later and provides definite facts from his life to Sims. The onus would be on us to disprove the reference to the thick file and we can't. Just my opinion,however...unless someone can sidestep Littlechild's recall of facts on a man after that period of time.
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                          • #28
                            Hi All,

                            Tim Riordan did some sterling work in his Ripperologist 92 article on Tumblety. Aside from finding a photograph of the man himself, he also discovered some of Dr T's travel prose to have been lifted word-for-word from a previously published guide, plus more from the sermons of the Rev Talmage, and that his correspondence with Longfellow was a lie.

                            Tim's article made me want to know more about the man who claimed to have met two Popes, Kaiser Wilhelm, Louis Napoleon and Charles Dickens, and whose pockets bulged with glowing testimonials from bankers, doctors, lawyers, civic leaders etc etc.

                            The following appeared in Tumblety's 1893 pamphlet "A Sketch of the Life of Dr Francis Tumblety".

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Queen Victoria visited Liverpool twice—in 1851 and 1886.

                            Tumblety told the New York World, 29th January 1889, that he "had been going over to England for a long time—ever since 1869, indeed . . ." which means his Royal Spoon presentation could only have taken place on May 11th, 12th or 13th 1886.

                            There was no Liverpool Daily Mercury. However, the Liverpool Mercury was lavish in its coverage of the Royal visit. So, too, was The Times, but in neither account could I find any mention of Tumblety's presentation spoon. So here is another story we can safely throw on the heap of lies that was Tumblety's life.

                            Why, then, with so much about his life which can be demonstrated as phony baloney, should we believe that Tumblety was ever arrested on suspicion of being Jack the Ripper?

                            Regards,

                            Simon

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Oh come on, Simon, give the poor old boy a break.
                              You mean to say that you sincerely do not believe Tumblety's tale of his first death? The one where his long legs wouldn't fit in the coffin, and he woke up as they were trying to saw 'em off?

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                              • #30
                                Howard,

                                Right now, one star is the lowest rating a Jtrforums thread can acquire. Is it possible to implement a new rating system where a thread can have the opportunity to earn for itself a half star or a quarter star? You know what I mean. A rating that more accurately reflects upon the depth that a thread can sink to?

                                The man was a liar, therefore he was incapable of murder.

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