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  • Some Questions As To His Story

    This is yet another area of the Case that we've overlooked...the establishment of a Hutchinson thread.

    Last night, Nina and I were discussing numerous Hutchinson related "points".

    One of them was the possibility....and I'm not sure if this has ever been mentioned before...if it has,please let me know...which Nina commented on about Hutchinson actually being responsible for the Astrakhan Man having the liason with Mary Kelly....reliant of course on whether this liasing ever occurred in the first place.

    It was hashed back and forth whether Hutchinson acted as sort of a "on the spot pimp'...who hooked these two up....and may have waited ( which he says he did ) expecting some sort of remuneration for his efforts in obtaining a client for Kelly.

    One other thing thats never been fully explained about Hutchinson is how, if he was indeed skint as he claims to have been and claimed to have told Kelly, he was able to find lodging for that night. What is he doing hanging out in the rain and cold if he HAD lodging ?

    I'm hoping Judge Hinton will appear on this thread to elaborate...knowing that some of us don't have a copy of his book, FROM HELL, to gauge his position.

    Any comments,people?
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  • #2
    It would also be nice if Glenn Andersson, one of the biggest Abberline critics, could appear here to discuss these points made.

    Although I am hip to the fact that Glenn has never been "happy" with FGA, I still am not absolutely certain as to why....and perhaps one of the previous statements on this thread is that very reason.
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    • #3
      I don't think Mary needed any help finding customers. And if Hutch had the money to actually wait inside Crossingham's he probably would have, as you point out.

      I think he panicked at the thought of having been seen hanging out near the murder site and made up the most outlandish story to deflect suspicion fronm himself. The police as well as the general public must have been ready by then to hang the crime on just about anyone and Hutch must have panicked. I know I would have.

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      • #4
        hi ho How

        There is no need for GH to have got lodgings. We know from historical documents written at the time (fully referenced on threads now consigned to memory) that walking the streets all night when without doss was pretty much what people did. At any rate...perhap he got lucky and found a dry spot undera bridge.

        p

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        • #5
          Thanks very much Lars...thats another consideration to where he "crashed" on the night in question.

          Good thinkin'...even for a Norwegian
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mags View Post

            I don't think Mary needed any help finding customers.
            Hi Mags,

            While that's almost certainly true in the sense of quantity, it may not be true in the sense of quality. Hutch's claim that Mary asked him to lend her sixpence and his reply that he couldn't has always had a ring of truth about it for me, as it wasn't a necessary part of his story and would have given the impression that he knew he could have her for sixpence if only he could find the funds - and suddenly here was this fancy man, invented or not, who could 'lend' Mary (as in pay her) a lot more than sixpence towards her back rent, or indeed 'lend' Hutch (as in be good for) the sixpence he needed for a place in Mary's bed and maybe a bit of the other thrown in.

            This is where Hutch could have come in handy from Mary's point of view as well as that of her customers. Since Joe's recent departure she had total freedom on the one hand to offer her customers a bed and charge more accordingly, to help keep McCarthy sweet and keep herself in gin tokens. But on the other hand she had to bear in mind that among her customers a homicidal maniac could be lurking. Hutch may have been able to do a bit of scouting, in Petticoat Lane for instance, for the kind of customer who was willing to pay above average for a 'tart with a heart' (!) and her own bed, even if it was only in crummy Dorset Street.

            Mary may have trusted Hutch to 'vet' such customers and weed out any oddballs, but she may also have equated an ability to pay more up front (regardless of their ability to snatch it back again) with an inability to be the savage who had lately been ripping up women on the street. There is nothing to say that the average working girl would not have suspected her own 'kind' in 1888 before a man who evidently had greater spending power. Prejudice takes many forms.

            A quick sixpence handed to Hutch by the customer for his pains before said customer disappears inside to get 'comfortable' with Mary, and two birds are killed with one stone. Customer assumes that Hutch has made himself scarce with his cut of the dodgy deal, but instead he hangs around (getting seen in the process) because he now has sixpence to 'lend' Mary and - ahem - get his head down, as soon as Customer has had his two bobs' worth and departed.

            But Mary is evidently giving him a long session for his money and Hutch gives up waiting. The rest is history, and Hutch's overly colourful description could be an indication that he was too far in not to go to the police with a story, but was also frightened that a genuine description of a customer he found for Mary would put his own life in danger.

            Love,

            Caz
            X
            I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

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            • #7
              Hi Howard

              I think most of us have come to the conclusion that Hutchinson was "up to something" that night and that was why his coming forward and witness statement were delayed until after the inquest. Maybe he was involved in some unrelated crime or as you say was working as a pimp for Mary Jane. Certainly it might seem that his statement that he was friendly with her might indicate some association, business or otherwise. In which case though if he got Astrakhan man and MJK together would he have given a truthful description of the man? The statement would appear to be either a total fabrication or a distortion of the truth. Interesting to ponder.

              All the best

              Chris
              Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
              https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
              Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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              • #8
                Caz:

                I think your post and points were very well made. Thanks for sharing those ideas.

                The possibility that Hutchinson

                A. Arrives from Romford
                B. Is outdoors at the moment
                C. Has no money for Kelly to borrow
                D. Figures a way to get the money she needs
                E. Goes to Petticoat Lane or another street to procure a client
                F. Depends on Kelly to kickback some coin to him after the expected 10 minute liason is over with....

                .....would possibly explain why the man is standing outdoors in the rain and cold. I can't understand nor ever could understand WHY Hutch would wait around while Kelly is engaged with a rank and file, garden variety, run of the mill customer. Whats it to him ? If he's not her pimp...her brother...her boyfriend...her best male friend.....whats it to him unless there is something in it for him?

                This also connects with Chris George's point(s) about a "false description" in a way.

                Hutchinson might have gotten frightened...not that he had any part whatsoever with the actual murder...but,as mentioned, did have something to do with the hookup with a character who turns out to be her killer.

                Hutchinson's elaborate description does in a way sound like a description one would give to obscure the real features of a man you would not care to run into again.

                Why does Hutchinson take "an extra step" in peering into the face of the man in the first place? Is this standard procedure, considering that virtually every man I know, and I have asked this to several men out there in the civilian world...would turn their heads when the two passed because what the two, Kelly and Astrakhan, were about to do was... well....of a sexual nature. Its a gesture that most men would make in a scenario like that.

                Back to you folks....
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                • #9
                  Hutchinson as suspect

                  Gday. i agree that H was probably her pimp or EXTREMELY interested friend/boyfriend. About the bloke with the fob watch (I think) that he gave such a detailed description of, it could be he was looking for a little affection. It could also be that he made him up because everyone was looking at him and he needed to deflect attention away from himself. 'Yes i was there but i didnt't do it but i can tell you about this bloke i saw her with. He looked shady to me....'

                  Cheers

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                  • #10
                    Dear Kim:

                    As far as anyone knows...yet...it doesn't appear that anyone was actually looking for Hutchinson as you mentioned in your post. Many people I am sure think that Hutchinson may have labored over the decision to appear in the police station 3 days after the actual murder....because he might have considered someone may have seen him lounging around at the end of the court on the fateful night.
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                    • #11
                      Hutch as Jack

                      Gday

                      You know much more about this than I do. I don't think H is a goer but then..now correct me if I'm wrong Kelly had defence marks on her forearms. That means she was awake and saw what was coming. What prostitute would go to sleep while her customer was in the room. If it was H then maybe she would be laid back (excuse the pun).

                      Please point me in the right direction

                      Cheers

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                      • #12
                        Dear Kim:

                        One of the "beautys" of Ripperology is that despite your comment about me or someone else here necessarily "knowing more" about a specific aspect or scenario found within the Case...none of us are certain of what transpired in Millers Court and are therefore just as "in the dark' as to the precise movements of Hutchinson that night as you might think you are. Your opinion is just as valuable as most and definitely as valuable as mine. Don't ever let anything obscure that fact.

                        Kelly did have what were probably defensive marks on her arms and for the sake of bringing up more possible ideas for the both of us, Kim...let me toss these up here.

                        1. Kelly may have been killed by the client after a sexual encounter and putting on her chemise. She wasn't nude.

                        2. Kelly may have been killed before she could get her chemise off and before the sexual liasing occurred.

                        3. Kelly may have had sex with the client....the client leaves...comes back...and enters ( hand through broken window to lift latch ) and then as she is nodding out, assaults her in the chemise she put on after he left and she was preparing to, or in, sleep.

                        4. Kelly may have been killed by Hutchinson, with the myriad of concomitant scenarios that would entail.

                        5. Kelly may have engaged in sex with that Astrakhan Man....he leaves...and someone else "bum rushes" her by rapping on the door...she opens it....he accosts her ( in her chemise ) and goes to "work" on her on the bed.

                        These are but a few,Kim, of the potential scenarios we are ALL faced with when trying to make sense of the events that night.

                        To further complicate matters, I have often wondered what the consensus would have been as to whom killed Kelly, had Hutchinson NOT appeared at the police station on the 12th. How about you?
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                        • #13
                          Hutchinson as suspect

                          Gday. Thanks for being so supportive as i try to wind my way through all the information. I don't have a bee in my bonnet about Hutchinson so I'll get that out of the way. So, we accept that he was not out in the cold, hanging around for 45mins or so, just because he had a kind heart. But he is, I'm certain, the man that Sarah Lewis/Mrs Kennedy told police she saw hanging around. If so, the cops already knew that someone had been there and they had a pretty good description of him. Now, with the hysteria in the area and the fact that a pardon was offered on Nov 10 for anyone who could give info about the crime, if i were H I'd be heading for the cop shop pretty quickly.

                          As you say, we'll never know what happened in that room besides the fact that Kelly was butchered. we don't know if she had intercourse with Jack but defence wounds, to me, would indicate that she was probably removing her clothes when he struck. But then again, would a pro who lived at that time in that part of london have bothered to undress to service her Joe.

                          Perhaps someone can give me an answer to that question.

                          Cheers

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                          • #14
                            Kim:

                            To answer your last question....yes, I would think that Kelly would undress to engage in coitus with Joe Barnett, IF that aspect of their relationship was based on some level of intimacy that sex with a stranger isn't.

                            Off the subject for a moment....I don't know if you've put much thought into this...I am sure others have...and up to now I haven't. Your question shook some apples off my tree over here which were sort of shakin' a little after reading "The Seduction of Mary Kelly" by Bill Perring.

                            There really isn't any proof is there, that Barnett and Kelly were intimate on a sexual level is there?

                            The wonderful book by Bill Perring, The Seduction of Mary Kelly, focuses on Barnett as almost a sort of "brother" ( and brother, what a pain in the butt that guy is with his echolalia in Bill's book !) to MJK.

                            It might be possible that after Barnett lost his job, his "value" to Kelly deteriorated to the point that any gratuitous sex they may have had vanished.

                            Its difficult for a man ( me )...to come to grips with how a guy like Barnett.......... who is not some 50 to 60 year old guy livin' in the LVP who has to pawn his shoes in order to find a roof over his head for a night and accept that his female life partner has to dole out her one remaining commodity, her vagina, in order to do the same for a glass of gin or a roof over her head as well.... tolerated other men to come into contact with someone he has an emotional attachment to....unless this attachment was not as deep as we have been led to believe it was at one time. Maybe she was a meal ticket for Barnett as well at some point and she got hip to that fact and put an end to it.

                            You've got to love someone an awful lot to tolerate someone else engaging in sexual contacts with smelly,greasy, and drunk men...who at any point, might have given Kelly syphilis or gonhorrea....which of course could have been given to Barnett HAD they been such a steady rollin' couple as we think they were. There's no way Barnett didn't know of the consequences of Kelly's behavior and how it could affect him.

                            This latter fact alone would have had me looking for someone "new" awfully quick.

                            I don't like to use and almost never did or do, the word "whore", Kim...in describing the victims of Jack The Ripper. But if I did use it, there's no question that the one whom I would openly and freely use it towards would be Kelly. I think she was the most capable woman in terms of age and enduring factory work or domestic service...and the one who could have risen out of her hole the easiest.
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                            • #15
                              Hutchinson as suspect

                              Gday. So you think it possible Barnett might have come back and done her in. OK we both i think agree that it wasn't H. But I still believe he was up to something. Why would you tell the coppers that she asked you for money? Either trying to really push he wasn't her pimp or he was really stupid. But I don't think the latter when i read his extremely detailed account about the man he said he saw leaving with Kelly. I must admit that I still am pretty iffy about this. He saw this bloke and someone else saw him but no-one else saw the bloke H said he saw. If you get my drift ( I hope).

                              Anway about Barnett. He knew she was a pro. He said he didn't want her to return to it. But 'she" and I emphasize 'she' was 30? shillings in arrears. Where was good, kind hearted Joe B when she couldn't pay the rent?

                              I just seem to keep coming up with more questions.

                              Cheers

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