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  • #61
    Poor Ap, isn't even here and he gets the blame.


    Hi How

    Sorry if I wasn't clear, Wentworth buildings was in Goulston street, Wentworth Street ran along the top of Goulston Street.

    Isaac Levy was born in 1852 and lived with his parents Joseph and Caroline in the 1861 and 71 census.

    In 1881 he is living at 71 Ernest Town Mile end old town with his wife Clara Marks and their children.

    In 1891 he is living in 130 Wentworth buildings/dwellings (they had just been built in 1886/7). Also it is stated that his daughter Rebecca Levy born 23 Nov 1888 - 1978 was born in Wentworth buildings.

    In 1901 Isaac Levy died of T.b and exhaustion so he doesn't appear in the census but Clara is there still at Wentworth buildings.

    Looking through the census reports, I am not sure if I am correct, I imagined 1 big building (like a block of flats) however it seems as though Wentworth buildings went for quite a length of the street, so it seems that the GSG was written on building 108-118 whereas Jacob's brother lived at 124 and 130 so at best it would be next door (unless the buildings joined and he did it on that part of the brick work!!!). If anyone has a description of the layout of the way the buidings were built I would be very grateful.

    Also I can't really answer why he would write this on his brother's building, anyone have any ideas?


    tj
    If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

    Comment


    • #62
      Good morning Tracy,

      Marked is the apron site at the Wentworth Model Dwellings (WMD).
      And where Isaac Kosminski and family lived in 1891 in the Brunswick Buildings (BB)

      Goulston%20Street%20May%201890.jpg

      Map courtesy of Rob Clack. Hope this is helpful to you - Roy

      Comment


      • #63
        Hi Roy

        Thanks for that attachment Roy, it was ideal.

        It gives me a better picture of the buildings, I guess the closest I am going to get is to say it would depend whereabouts exactly the GSG was written, as to whether Isaac lived in the correct building or next door. :0)

        tj
        If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
          Thanks for that attachment Roy

          .. it would depend whereabouts exactly the GSG was written, as to whether Isaac lived in the correct building or next door.
          You're welcome, Tracy

          Go to the Individual Members Forums, choose Rob Clack, his Murder Site Maps thread where he has closeup maps of it. And everything.

          Roy

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          • #65
            Thanks Roy

            I am going there now - and thanks Rob for posting them

            tracy
            If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

            Comment


            • #66
              Thanks so much for the infos on maps, Roy!
              I was about to print some (along with some other files), when all of a sudden – boom, all 3 colour ink cartridges from my printer=empty. I gotta wait until monday to refill...
              Best regards,
              Maria

              Comment


              • #67
                I apologize for such an ignorant, newbie question, but could someone direct me to a comprehensive historical map of Whitechapel (preferably from 1888), which would include the names of ALL the streets? The 1888 map of Whitechapel posted on casebook doesn't feature the names of all the streets, and Rob Clack's excellent, detailed murder site maps are not for the entire Whitechapel.
                Thank you so much.
                Best regards,
                Maria

                Comment


                • #68
                  Hi

                  Forgetting the GSG and apron found near his brothers building for the moment (I digressed) I will now get back to the family.

                  As we know Jacob's father's side is the levy's. My interest (probably because I can't find any freaking info on them) is his mother's side, Caroline Solomons.

                  Caroline was born in 1819 Aldgate - father Abraham Solomons, can't find her mother.

                  She has 2 children before she met Joseph - Rebecca Solomons born in 1837 and Jane Solomons born in 1841
                  The fact that they are called Solomons raises a few questions, did she have children out of wedlock, divorced, could she have been widowed and reverted back to her father's name, are any of these possible, also of course she may have married a Solomons.

                  In 1847 she gives birth to Hannah Levy out of wedlock.
                  In 1848 she marries Joseph Levy.

                  They then have Elizabeth Levy born 1848
                  Isaac Levy born 1851
                  Abraham Levy born 1854
                  Jacob Levy born 1856
                  Moses Levy born 1859
                  Rebecca Levy born 1867

                  Now was it the norm to have children out of wedlock like this or would there have been some stigma attached?

                  We know that Abraham Levy died by committing suicide on May 26 1875, hanging himself whilst of unsound mind. It is also reported that Jacob's maternal grandfather died young.

                  Tj
                  If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Hello Tracy,
                    great research on the mother's side!
                    I'm just a newbie and everything but a specialist, but I think that in Victorian Whitechapel commun law marriages and children out of wedlock were the norm. I recall that many female witnesses in the inquiries gave the name of their boyfriend or ex-boyfriend as being their husband, etc.. Now if the Jewish population proceeded any differently pertaining to this, I really don't know...
                    Best regards,
                    Maria

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Hi Maria

                      I have heard about living out of wedlock, but like you, I am not sure if the Jewish population held the same 'traditions' to that extent, or if it was frowned upon.

                      tj
                      If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Hi Tracy,
                        Yes, I would expect the Jewish to be more conservative on that, but still, no special knowledge here!
                        Best regards,
                        Maria

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
                          Now was it the norm to have children out of wedlock like this or would there have been some stigma attached?
                          In Accordance with the Fifty First Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England, 1888:

                          Whitechapel Registration District:

                          Registered Births
                          - 'Legitimate': 2,554
                          - 'Illegitimate': 76

                          Total: 2,630

                          ---

                          Registered Marriages: 474

                          ---

                          Interestingly, sixty three (63) of the seventy six (76) registered births classified as 'Illegitimate', occurred within the Registration Sub-District of 'Mile End New Town'; i.e. within the sub-district, in which the Whitechapel Union Infirmary was situated.

                          ---

                          I will expound on this and other similar data, at some point, within the next couple of days.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            To Colin Roberts:
                            Thank you so much for the statistics. Is there an estimate about births having remained unregistered in Victorian London? (Obviously when someone gave birth at home, or homeless?)
                            It doesn't surprise me in the least that 63 out of 76 registered “illegitimate“ births in 1888 happened within the sub-district where the Whitechapel Union Infirmary was situated. I wonder how many of the 63 registered “illegitimate“ births in 1888 were of Jewish antecendants. Does the Whitechapel Registration District feature family names for the newborns?
                            I should have been looking up for this info myself, many-many apologies...!
                            Best regards,
                            Maria

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Hi Colin

                              Once more thank you for taking time out to help with my query.

                              This will be a big help and will help to put things in better perspective for me.

                              Tj
                              If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                How does Levy compare with Anderson's 'suspect'?.
                                Itsnotrocketsurgery

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