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  • #91
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    ..., would it therefore be odd that Joseph and Caroline got married at St Luke's?
    At first glance, I would say 'extremely odd', Tracy. But, I'll have to do some more 'analysis', so to speak.

    Could the marriage have been either 'Christian' or 'Civil'?

    Comment


    • #92
      Hi Colin

      At first glance, I would say 'extremely odd', Tracy. But, I'll have to do some more 'analysis', so to speak.

      Could the marriage have been either 'Christian' or 'Civil'

      Yeah that was what I thought was weird if it is Caroline and Joseph.

      According to the free BMD there is a Catherine Solomons married at St Luke's Jul/Aug/Sep.

      There is also a Joseph Levy married at St Luke's Middlesex Jul/Aug/Sep.

      We know the date of our Caroline and Joseph's marriage was 4 Sep 1848.

      I am not sure to be honest Colin, would Jewish people take Christian vows, could it be because of the children out of wedlock, or would the Christian church have taken the same view?

      I don't know enough about Jewish traditions, I will have to see if I can find some info out on it.

      Tj
      If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

      Comment


      • #93
        Hi Roy

        Thanks for posting that, would you know, does this mean it would have been claseed as a public asylum while he was there, but in 1892 could have been described as a private asylum, or would it still be public?


        Tracy
        If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

        Comment


        • #94
          Hi Maria

          There were TONS of asylums for the “insane“ in 19th century France. The most
          famous were Picpus, Salpêtrière (where also prostitutes were brought, when arrested), and many others

          Do you know if they would kill an insane person for their crimes though, instead of housing them in an asylum like the British did?

          Tj
          If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

          Comment


          • #95
            Hi Tracy,
            no, they absolutely wouldn't kill any “lunatics“ in France, not since the medieval times!
            Best regards,
            Maria

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Maria Birbili View Post
              Hi Tracy,
              no, they absolutely wouldn't kill any “lunatics“ in France, not since the medieval times!
              Just as well as there'd be nobody left in the country .
              Itsnotrocketsurgery

              Comment


              • #97
                Stephen Thomas wrote:
                Just as well as there'd be nobody left in the country.

                And today, they would have totally killed me, as they should.
                Best regards,
                Maria

                Comment


                • #98
                  Hi

                  Sorry re-reading my last post I wasn't very specific, What I meant was that in Britain an insane person couldn't be tried/executed for their crimes, was this the same in France,

                  If so what was Anderson talking about when he said if he had the same powers as the French he would have brought him to justice?

                  tj
                  If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Hi Stephen

                    This is the Casebook Suspects File entry. Levy seems to have had the means (butchers skills) and possible motive (syphilis caught from a prostitute?) and certainly opportunity, living in the vicinity. Plus he died a year after incarceration like Anderson's man. And could the Stone Asylum thing be a complete coincidence?

                    Jacob ticks a lot of the boxes for Jtr (well for me and Jimi anyway). I realise he has been a suspect for a few years now, that is what is so incredible, with all this info we have about him, surely he should be higher up the suspect rank.

                    Thanks for the link - I have read that dissertation before, it is a good read.

                    Can I ask what you mean about the Stone Asylum being a complete coincidence?

                    Tj
                    If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                    Comment


                    • Tracy,
                      I'm afraid I'm more familiar with political processes in France than with criminology, but from the little I know about France policing, I have the distinct feeling that what Anderson meant was that French police would have been able to follow through and to intervene with a Ripper suspect. Still, I'm sure this is a question for Stewart Evans.
                      Best regards,
                      Maria

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Colin Roberts View Post
                        Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
                        ..., would it therefore be odd that Joseph and Caroline got married at St Luke's?
                        At first glance, I would say 'extremely odd', Tracy. But, I'll have to do some more 'analysis', so to speak.

                        Could the marriage have been either 'Christian' or 'Civil'?
                        My 'first glance' was a bit careless, Tracy.

                        I inadvertently referenced the less detailed 'editions' of the annual reports of the Registrar-General, for the 1840's/1850's, in seeking to discover the numbers of 'Jewish' marriages that occurred in the various Registration Districts, within London, during these periods. The data was not available, in the less detailed 'editions', and I naturally assumed that it was not available, at all.

                        In saying "extremely odd", I was assuming that a dire lack of 'Jewish' marriages, in the St. Luke Registration District, during the period 1871-1884, would translate into the same, for the 1848 period in time. I was wrong!

                        So, while it would appear that Jews did not wed in either 'St. Luke', or 'Whitechapel', throughout the 1870's, and well into the 1880's; they most certainly did, in 1848.

                        Registered Marriages, Classified as 'Jewish', 1848

                        - St. James Westminster Registration District: 7
                        - Strand Registration District: 4
                        - St. Luke Registration District: 75
                        - City of London Registration District: 37
                        - Whitechapel Registration District: 7

                        Sub-Total, Registration Division of London: 130

                        Total, England: 186

                        In fact, St. Luke appears to have been theee place for 'Jewish' marriages, throughout the whole of England, in 1848.

                        I would imagine there was a widely attended synagogue, in the St. Luke Registration District (i.e. the Parish of St. Luke), that disappeared, at some point, post-1848.

                        ---

                        Also; ...

                        I have found more detailed (i.e. the level of Registration District) data, regarding illegitimacy, in London, during the 1848 period in time.

                        ---

                        Give me a few days, Tracy; and, I will provide you with a whole lotta data/analysis, regarding 'Jewish' marriages, and illegitimacy.

                        In any case, it should all boil down to the following:

                        - Jews were relatively frequently married, in the St. Luke Registration District, in the late 1840's

                        - Overall rates of illegitimacy, throughout London, were in the low single-digits, in the late 1840's

                        Comment


                        • Jewish weddings in Victorian London

                          Mr Roberts, thank you so much for the excellent research.
                          I'm sure that a synagogue in the St. Luke Registration District/the Parish of St. Luke disappeared post-1848 must be possible to be found, perhaps even in maps pre-1848?
                          I have NO idea if there were social unrests in London in 1848. I'm so uninformed in English history, it's embarrassing!
                          Best regards,
                          Maria

                          Comment



                          • Hi Colin - hey everyone is allowed to jump to conclusions once in a while,

                            I would imagine there was a widely attended synagogue, in the St. Luke Registration District (i.e. the Parish of St. Luke), that disappeared, at some point, post-1848.

                            So you telling me someone misplaced a synagogue - boy are they in trouble!

                            I wonder why the synagogue lost it's congregation, if it was so popular.

                            Just thinking aloud, didn't the Hambro marriage records start from 1848, could it be simply that a newer synagogue became more popular?


                            ---

                            Give me a few days, Tracy; and, I will provide you with a whole lotta data/analysis, regarding 'Jewish' marriages, and illegitimacy.

                            Thanks Colin.


                            In any case, it should all boil down to the following:

                            - Jews were relatively frequently married, in the St. Luke Registration District, in the late 1840's

                            - Overall rates of illegitimacy, throughout London, were in the low single-digits, in the late 1840's

                            So, obviously there can't have been as much of a 'taint' on Caroline's character as I was hoping, if she married in a Jewish synagogue. Still I suppose there may still have been a stigma if she had illegitimate children.

                            I wonder how things would have stood with the children's name if she married a gentile first time round?
                            Tj

                            If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post

                              Can I ask what you mean about the Stone Asylum being a complete coincidence?
                              Hi Tracy

                              Lady Anderson (Sir Robert's wife) is said to have told somebody that JTR died in Stone Asylum like Levy. Someone else could maybe elaborate on this.
                              Itsnotrocketsurgery

                              Comment


                              • Hi Stephen

                                Yes I am aware of this, another fact that helps out the Jacob Levy idea!

                                I wonder if she knew who he was or just where he had been sent.

                                Tj
                                If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.

                                Comment

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