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  • Tracy Ianson
    replied
    Hi Anna and Paul, apologies for the delay in answering.

    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    Considering licenses for Jewish, presumably kosher butchers, would those have been government licenses or was the Jewish community allowed to license their own butchers and butcher shops? If the latter that could help explain how women continued in the profession after husbands died or became disabled.

    Before modern health rules, what was the main point of licensing butcher shops? Was it a government formality to control activity and generate money from licenses? If so, might the largely Jewish areas have been allowed to have their own rules and licensing procedures?
    Great question Anna and I have to admit I am not sure of the answer.
    I know a Kosher butcher would be given the title only after showing they could butcher keeping to the Jewish rites, in which the met was cut and kept in a very specific way. This is done by a shochet. This was normally a man with good standing in the community.
    So I am guessing here but I imagine people who were devout Jews would want to buy their meat here, however I imagine other people were allowed to sell meat they just wouldn't be prepared to that standard. So if a husband was a shochet I would imagine a wife may not be able to take over the practice, whereas if it was just an 'average' butchers shop they could buy the license more for the premise rather than the person.

    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by Paul Sullivan View Post
    Hi Tracy,

    I was reading a section I found about JtR called Religion Drove Jack The Ripper on Google when carrying out a search. Would you have said Jacob Levy, being JtR carried out the murder on Liz Stride or would have said she was not a ripper victim?
    Me personally I am more of the opinion Martha Tabram was more a Jtr victim more than I do Liz, but that doesn't mean a convincing argument could make me change my mind with regards to Liz.

    Tracy

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Sullivan
    replied
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Hi Paul

    Syphilis was only contagious through the first few month and so if Jacob contracted syphilis before meeting Sarah (which I believe) then by the time they married and started having children he would have had syphilis but not be contagious. The syphilis finally going into from the latent stage into the tertiary stage around 1886.

    As for the children if you look at the timeline, for me it fits his incarcerations.

    They had children every year from 1880 - 1890 besides for 1886 when he would have been in the asylum.
    Then when he goes to Stone asylum in 1890 there are no more kids. Hope this helps

    Tracy
    Hi Tracy,

    I was reading a section I found about JtR called Religion Drove Jack The Ripper on Google when carrying out a search. Would you have said Jacob Levy, being JtR carried out the murder on Liz Stride or would have said she was not a ripper victim?

    Many thanks,

    Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Considering licenses for Jewish, presumably kosher butchers, would those have been government licenses or was the Jewish community allowed to license their own butchers and butcher shops? If the latter that could help explain how women continued in the profession after husbands died or became disabled.

    Before modern health rules, what was the main point of licensing butcher shops? Was it a government formality to control activity and generate money from licenses? If so, might the largely Jewish areas have been allowed to have their own rules and licensing procedures?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tracy Ianson
    replied
    Hi Paul

    Syphilis was only contagious through the first few month and so if Jacob contracted syphilis before meeting Sarah (which I believe) then by the time they married and started having children he would have had syphilis but not be contagious. The syphilis finally going into from the latent stage into the tertiary stage around 1886.

    As for the children if you look at the timeline, for me it fits his incarcerations.

    They had children every year from 1880 - 1890 besides for 1886 when he would have been in the asylum.
    Then when he goes to Stone asylum in 1890 there are no more kids. Hope this helps

    Tracy

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Sullivan
    replied
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Hi Paul

    Yes it would have been. Frances husband Hyam (Joseph Hyam Levy's father) was a butcher by trade and was recorded at the address as a butcher from 1841 onwards and we also have him in Pigots records before then. It looks like Frances took over the business until selling it to Jacob. In the 1891 census she is now living on her own means at 60 London Road.

    Not a silly question at all but I ave to admit to not knowing the answer. I know shops were usually just named by surnames if they had any name but I am not sure if this was the case for the Levys.

    Tracy
    Hi Tracy,

    The syphilis part I understand, but it would be difficult for Sarah to have children if Jacob was in Brentwood Asylum? Did she ever visit him and were they alone and had encounters? Or wasn't he the father to some of the children?

    Many thanks,

    Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Sullivan
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Sullivan View Post
    Okay, so there are split views on him with contacting syphilis. The Joseph I was on about was Jacob's cousin. Sarah never had a licence what she needed to sell the meat from her business? But was it the presence of Joseph within the Jewish community that helped her by-pass this in order to survive?

    Many thanks,

    Paul
    Hi Tracy,

    It is me again, on the case of old Jacob.

    I read the link from mangodesign.biz and under one part of the syphilis section...
    If Jacob had syphilis in 1886, how could his wife Sarah then
    fall pregnant and deliver four children between 1887 and 1891,
    Nathan, John, Caroline and Moss?
    In 1886-87, we have Jacob in Brentwood asylum, but what of his wife Sarah?

    Either I am not reading properly, but how could he have fathered the children if he was in Brentwood Asylum?

    All help would be grateful, again and again.

    Many thanks,

    Paul

    [/QUOTE]

    Hi Tracy,

    The syphilis part I understand, but it would be difficult for Sarah to have children if Jacob was in Brentwood Asylum? Did she ever visit him and were they alone and had encounters? Or wasn't he the father to some of the children?

    Many thanks,

    Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Sullivan
    replied
    Okay, so there are split views on him with contacting syphilis. The Joseph I was on about was Jacob's cousin. Sarah never had a licence what she needed to sell the meat from her business? But was it the presence of Joseph within the Jewish community that helped her by-pass this in order to survive?

    Many thanks,

    Paul[/QUOTE]

    Hi Tracy,

    It is me again, on the case of old Jacob.

    I read the link from mangodesign.biz and under one part of the syphilis section...
    If Jacob had syphilis in 1886, how could his wife Sarah then
    fall pregnant and deliver four children between 1887 and 1891,
    Nathan, John, Caroline and Moss?
    In 1886-87, we have Jacob in Brentwood asylum, but what of his wife Sarah?

    Either I am not reading properly, but how could he have fathered the children if he was in Brentwood Asylum?

    All help would be grateful, again and again.

    Many thanks,

    Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Tracy Ianson
    replied
    Hi Paul

    Yes it would have been. Frances husband Hyam (Joseph Hyam Levy's father) was a butcher by trade and was recorded at the address as a butcher from 1841 onwards and we also have him in Pigots records before then. It looks like Frances took over the business until selling it to Jacob. In the 1891 census she is now living on her own means at 60 London Road.

    Not a silly question at all but I ave to admit to not knowing the answer. I know shops were usually just named by surnames if they had any name but I am not sure if this was the case for the Levys.

    Tracy

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Sullivan
    replied
    Mr Jacob Levy

    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Hi Paul

    We have to assume Sarah was able to gain a license or sell without one as she was classed as a butcher in her own right in the 1891 census. (although by 1901 she was a hawker).
    We know that she took over the running of the business when Jacob's illness started to deteriorate form 1886 onwards.

    I don't think this was uncommon as such though. Sarah Levy, Jacob's grandmother, was a butcher from the 1841 census to the 1861 census. (her husband dying prior to 1841.) We also have her in Pigot etc in the 1830's.

    Again I can't say Joseph didn't have a say in her care, but also we can't say to what degree if he did. We know Jewish community tried to look after there own so she may have had support from them also.

    Last year a descendant of Jacob's posted that he had charity records for Sarah in which she was given train fare to visit him in the asylum and also for food, so if this is the case I am not sure how much of a financial input Joseph had with her.

    Tracy
    Hi Tracy,

    Jacob lived in 36 Middlesex St. Before him it was his aunt, Frances who lived there. Was this a butchers shop then and if so, was his aunt a butcher by trade?

    And one other thing, this may sound a silly question, but do we know what the name of the butchers shop he owned was called? Was is it with his surname above the shop or were shops not with names as such in 1888?

    Any help form your wide knowledge would be very grateful.

    Kind regards,

    Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Tracy Ianson
    replied
    Thanks Stephen

    Looks like Ancestry has some new stuff on there. Exciting!!
    Hopefully they will be things I don't have.......I may be gone a while

    Tracy

    Leave a comment:


  • Stephen Collyer
    replied
    Hi Tracy.
    Yes - a simple search on ancestry.co.uk & it pops up straight away...

    Leave a comment:


  • Tracy Ianson
    replied
    Hi Stephen

    Great find

    Yes I have this and the intake papers for Jacob that someone kindly took for me when they visited Kent, just never sure of the privacy laws and whether allowed to post them or not

    Do you mind me asking if you got them online or not?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stephen Collyer
    replied
    Here's Levy's warrant of removal from prison to asylum 25th May 1886.
    Apologies if this image has been put up before.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tracy Ianson
    replied
    Hi Paul

    We have to assume Sarah was able to gain a license or sell without one as she was classed as a butcher in her own right in the 1891 census. (although by 1901 she was a hawker).
    We know that she took over the running of the business when Jacob's illness started to deteriorate form 1886 onwards.

    I don't think this was uncommon as such though. Sarah Levy, Jacob's grandmother, was a butcher from the 1841 census to the 1861 census. (her husband dying prior to 1841.) We also have her in Pigot etc in the 1830's.

    Again I can't say Joseph didn't have a say in her care, but also we can't say to what degree if he did. We know Jewish community tried to look after there own so she may have had support from them also.

    Last year a descendant of Jacob's posted that he had charity records for Sarah in which she was given train fare to visit him in the asylum and also for food, so if this is the case I am not sure how much of a financial input Joseph had with her.

    Tracy

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Sullivan
    replied
    Originally posted by Tracy Ianson View Post
    Hi Paul

    Thanks Paul. ☺

    There is some split opinions as to when Jacob contracted syphilis. I believe he contacted it before marrying Sarah and therefore was passed the contagious phase. This would explain why her or the children don't seem to have contacted it.

    If we look at the years the children where born you notice the gap coincides with Jacobs incaceration.
    I can't say your scenario is impossible but I haven't seen any evidence of this. Joseph (I am assuming you are talking about Joseph Hyam Levy) was married to Amelia at the time and they never had children.



    I am reading the link which is interesting, so any more please feel free to post. Just one thing, Jacob was in Brentwood asylum in 1886. Could it be true if he had syphilis, and we assume Sarah never had this and she was looked after whilst Jacob was away, could it be Joseph Levy was the father?

    Many thanks.....again!

    Paul
    [/QUOTE]

    Okay, so there are split views on him with contacting syphilis. The Joseph I was on about was Jacob's cousin. Sarah never had a licence what she needed to sell the meat from her business? But was it the presence of Joseph within the Jewish community that helped her by-pass this in order to survive?

    Many thanks,

    Paul

    Leave a comment:

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