Location Location Location - Maybrick

[SirRobertAnderson]

"The extra addition of the link between the two Whitechapels in those cities also gives a reasonably feasible reason for committing murder in London"

Sorry, Nemo, but that statement just isn't logical. Why would having a Whitechapel in Liverpool encourage the man to murder in Whitechapel, London? It's a connection that the Diarist attempts to make but to my mind it only points out the implausibility of travelling the 200 miles to commit murder.

Moved my response to the Maybrick ghetto so as to not sidetrack this discussion.



Of course it wouldn't encourage him.....

But Maybrick had a few reasons to visit London and Whitechapel in particular. One, he conducted business there for G.A.Witt whose offices were on Cullum Street.And two, he had a mistress - possibly a second wife - that was a long time resident there. Children as well. He carried on with her for over twenty years.

And of course his brother Michael lived there.

He was no stranger to the area. That isn't speculation. I'm talking about the real life Maybrick, who was also fond of whores. A madam of a Norfork brothel said that he regularly visited her establishment three times a week for years.

None of which of course makes him the Ripper. But he had long standing ties to the area.

And I don't find the idea of a commuting SK that bizarre.

[Big Jon]

Moved my response to the Maybrick ghetto so as to not sidetrack this discussion.



Of course it wouldn't encourage him.....

But Maybrick had a few reasons to visit London and Whitechapel in particular. One, he conducted business there for G.A.Witt whose offices were on Cullum Street.And two, he had a mistress - possibly a second wife - that was a long time resident there. Children as well. He carried on with her for over twenty years.

And of course his brother Michael lived there.

He was no stranger to the area. That isn't speculation. I'm talking about the real life Maybrick, who was also fond of whores. A madam of a Norfork brothel said that he regularly visited her establishment three times a week for years.

None of which of course makes him the Ripper. But he had long standing ties to the area.

And I don't find the idea of a commuting SK that bizarre.

Assuming for a second that whoever wrote diary was murderer...


Probably more likely that the diarist/Maybrick/whoever found the two Whitechapels connection amusing, not that it actually encouraged him to do it there.


I'm willing to bet commuting serial killers are probably more common than we realise (especially in the fast paced 21st century) as it's more difficult to connect victims to them. I doubt diarist would have commuted to kill, just had more opportunity to do so while in London than Liverpool.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I'm willing to bet commuting serial killers are probably more common than we realise (especially in the fast paced 21st century) as it's more difficult to connect victims to them. I doubt diarist would have commuted to kill, just had more opportunity to do so while in London than Liverpool.

Maybrick had several connections to the area. This is a matter of fact having zippo to do with the Diary.

4 Cullum Street <<business office
55 Bromley Street <<mistress/wife of 20 years plus a number of children. She was living/working in Whitechapel when he first met her.

And of course Michael Maybrick lived in Wellington Mansions near Regent Park.I can't help it if people choose to eliminate Maybrick as a suspect, but do it for the right reasons. The man went to London and Whitechapel on a frequent basis.

Out of curiosity where did the trains from Liverpool into London disembark?

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Hi Robert

It was mentioned in "The Final Chapter" that detectives watched Euston and Willesden stations at one point and that these were the only stations you would disembark from if you were travelling from Liverpool

I'm tracing a few references to horse racing in the Ripper letters mentioned by Patricia Cornwell

She claims horse racing terms are used and that often towns mentioned in the letters are horse racing towns, though she erroneously says that Bangor St doesn't exist in London and was probably referring to Bangor, where horse racing takes place (from the Nov 1889 poem letter)

She links these references with Sickert but there may obviously be some connection with Maybrick and his travels

However, Sickert was apparently very knowledgeable about horse racing - the 1889 Grand National being the fastest in living memory might be just the thing he would know

Let's assume Cornwell has proven that Sickert utilised varied handwriting and composed some of the Ripper letters

This raises the possibility that he is a candidate for being the author of the diary if it is an old fake

Either way, I was considering why Maybrick wouldn't commit crimes elsewhere than London, being supposedly a serial killer who travelled widely

Maybe this was because he was an unusual case in having committed his serial crimes due to a personal slight - rather than himself being fundamentally a dedicated serial killer with no set purpose other than to kill, wherever that may be. Unusual, but not unique

Lucian Staniak embarked on his crime spree due to a member of his family being killed in a car crash,and he mutilated his victims and taunted the police with letters

[SirRobertAnderson]

Either way, I was considering why Maybrick wouldn't commit crimes elsewhere than London, being supposedly a serial killer who travelled widely

Folks need to remember that Maybrick returned home from America because his business there was in the tank, and he saw Flo and her mother as a piggybank. (And to be fair, they saw the same in him. They both misled the other as to their economic status.)

So circa 1888 his roaming was pretty much restricted to London. (And Manchester if we are to believe the Diary but I prefer to stick to known facts for the purposes of this discussion.)

And I am completely unable to assess Sickert as Diarist. We Maybrickians have enough on our plate as is.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I can empathise with that Robert - lol

I'll see if I can locate some of the letters PC refers to as she's a bit sketchy sometimes

I forgot to check the watermarked letters,a matching one to the Openshaw letter for example

She makes quite a significant thing out of Sickert's horse racing connections and some Ripper letters, mentioning Manchester IIRC, which just brought Maybrick mind

I have neglected to read a thread at Casebook matching a letter or two with the Diary and should really explore that further in case there is a significant indication that a contemporary letter writer authored the Diary

That in itself raises the possibility of Sickert having something to do with it as the findings of Mr Peter Bowers, who is also mentioned as a Diary examiner I think, in regard to Sickert having authored some Ripper letters, appears quite compelling

[Big Jon]

Maybrick had several connections to the area. This is a matter of fact having zippo to do with the Diary.

4 Cullum Street <<business office
55 Bromley Street <<mistress/wife of 20 years plus a number of children. She was living/working in Whitechapel when he first met her.

And of course Michael Maybrick lived in Wellington Mansions near Regent Park.I can't help it if people choose to eliminate Maybrick as a suspect, but do it for the right reasons. The man went to London and Whitechapel on a frequent basis.

Out of curiosity where did the trains from Liverpool into London disembark?

Agreed Robert. As you have said it has been proven Maybrick has had many links to the area, so his permanent living address being in Liverpool can't discount him from being JTR. I was merely stating some possible practical reasons in terms of the diary of why he may have killed in London.


Modern trains from Liverpool terminate at Euston. As historically Euston was also the main route from Ireland to London (via many different ferry routes and train lines) it may have also been the station from Liverpool in the 1880's - do we have any railway historians on the boards?


Off topic P.S. - when you publishing the transcript of the rest of your talk?

[SirRobertAnderson]

I have neglected to read a thread at Casebook matching a letter or two with the Diary and should really explore that further in case there is a significant indication that a contemporary letter writer authored the Diary

That in itself raises the possibility of Sickert having something to do with it as the findings of Mr Peter Bowers, who is also mentioned as a Diary examiner I think, in regard to Sickert having authored some Ripper letters, appears quite compelling

I have to pull out my notes but there is one letter from Scotland I believe that not only is a reasonable handwriting "match" but is from a place that Maybrick is known to have visited with his brother and has connections with the cotton trade. I dunno. I have enough on my plate without concerning myself with the various letters.

Bowers is Cornwell's paper expert. Bowers has opined on the Diary both in the past and more recently, if scuttlebutt is worth anything. He's apparently trying to tie the Diary to France in some way. Which of course would fit with Sickert posing as Maybrick posing as the Ripper.....

We just need to add the Royal Connection courtesy of Michael Maybrick as well as his Freemasonry and we have all the major food groups in one tasty stew.

But all that is way above my pay grade.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

That's interesting about connecting the Diary to France

I remember something about a letter from Galashiels but I forgot what it said

I'll check it out again along with the thread at Casebook as I think it refers to other letters

I don't remember the Diary mentioning anything about a disguise used by Maybrickwhile in the East End

Is it supposed that he was Astrakhan man?

I've always thought awareness of Hutchinson's reference to the horseshoe tiepin and seeing the picture of Maybrick in the top hat with just such a tiepin may have inspured the notion that he was, or at least fitted the description, of JtR

Spats have been suggested as morning wear which implies Astrakhan man had not changed clothes that day

Was Maybrick supposedly in the East End in the early hours of the morning dressed in gentlemanly attire?

Doesn't the bag left at the Charing Cross hotel, possibly linked with Maybrick (Mibrac) give some clue as to how he was supposedly attired while killing?

Also, it may suggest Maybrick/JtR did carry a black bag and was attired at least "like a clerk" or maybe "shabby genteel"?

Actually, I was wondering about this because I was imagining Maybrick killing and then pretty much immediately returning to Liverpool but I suppose he would have the opportunity to change clothes and the like while in Whitechapel

Where was he supposed to have cooked and eaten the organs? In Liverpool or the East End?

[Chris G.]

Maybrick had several connections to the area. This is a matter of fact having zippo to do with the Diary.

4 Cullum Street <<business office
55 Bromley Street <<mistress/wife of 20 years plus a number of children. She was living/working in Whitechapel when he first met her.

And of course Michael Maybrick lived in Wellington Mansions near Regent Park.I can't help it if people choose to eliminate Maybrick as a suspect, but do it for the right reasons. The man went to London and Whitechapel on a frequent basis.

Out of curiosity where did the trains from Liverpool into London disembark?

Hi Bob

Yes okay but if it really happened that way, Maybrick was taking a chance, wasn't he, traveling 200 miles just to kill, hoping that no one would notice that his absences coincided with the murders in London?

Once again, I have to wonder at the scenario which seems, at the least, stretched and implausible.

Now I grant that James Maybrick had certain connections with London that might mean that he had to travel there at regular intervals, but still the idea that the Liverpool man who was "murdered" by his wife in 1889 was Jack the Ripper 200 miles away in the East End of London makes for a very incredible story. I still don't buy it.

Best regards

Chris

[Chris G.]

Let's assume Cornwell has proven that Sickert utilised varied handwriting and composed some of the Ripper letters

This raises the possibility that he is a candidate for being the author of the diary if it is an old fake

Yes but, Nemo, I would hazard to say that if Walter Sickert was the author of the Diary it would look a bit more artistic and professional than the dog's dinner of "Diary" that we have been presented with.

Chris

[SirRobertAnderson]

if Walter Sickert was the author of the Diary it would look a bit more artistic and professional than the dog's dinner of "Diary" that we have been presented with.

And it would make you feel better about the "Diary" if it was all spiffy and "artistic"????

What do you expect a "real" Jack the Ripper diary to read like, to appear like?

Yes okay but if it really happened that way, Maybrick was taking a chance, wasn't he, traveling 200 miles just to kill, hoping that no one would notice that his absences coincided with the murders in London?

The real Jack the Ripper was taking a real chance, wasn't he? I mean it's crazy irrational behavior to begin with.

Keep in mind that this is a guy with a mistress/wife on the side, with whom he had 4-5 children. Had this relationship for over twenty years. He informed Sarah that he had married Flo AFTER the marriage!

I would argue close tabs were not being kept on the man. A double life does not Jack the Ripper make but it sure helps.

I still don't buy it.

I think by now we all get that you don't. We're clear on that.

[Chris G.]

Yes but, Nemo, I would hazard to say that if Walter Sickert was the author of the Diary it would look a bit more artistic and professional than the dog's dinner of "Diary" that we have been presented with.

Chris

And it would make you feel better about the "Diary" if it was all spiffy and "artistic"????

What do you expect a "real" Jack the Ripper diary to read like, to appear like?

Hi Bob

I think you will have read Patricia Cornwell's book. In terms of the possibility that Nemo brings up that Sickert could have been responsible for the Diary, I would remind you of the Ripper letters with drawings and the sketches in the Lizard Inn hotel guestbook that she attributes to Sickert, along with the special inks, the specific stationery, etc. The existing Diary doesn't seem quite like Sickert's style in other words.

Best regards

Chris

[SirRobertAnderson]

Hi Bob

I think you will have read Patricia Cornwell's book.

Believe ir or not, I haven't.

The existing Diary doesn't seem quite like Sickert's style in other words.

Gotcha. Misunderstood you - I thought you were getting into "this just doesn't read like the real Ripper's Diary" territory.

Thanks again for your help with the photos for my talk.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Although as I said before, I'm certain these claims have been made about Maybrick, not only a series of murdered Black women in the States but also a kill in Mancester?

The Diarist mentions two attacks in Manchester. It's not clear from the text that the women were killed.

It's safe to toss the American Connection in the bin. When Robert Smith lost the rights to Harrison's book, the new publisher was hot to trot with the idea of appealing to the American audience by working in the Austin murders. It's not Shirley's shining moment but one of the things I respect about her is she is one of the very few authors that is willing to admit to a mistake and change her mind.

Interestingly Michael Maybrick was on tour in Texas for some of the dates of the attacks. But I wouldn't get all worked up over it.