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Is this Le Grand's marriage certificate?

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  • Is this Le Grand's marriage certificate?

    Here are my research notes from last year-I haven't done any more work on it since then but came across the notes again while looking for something else and decided to publish them here in case anyone can help with finding any other Charles Grande this may refer to.

    I have lots of information on the female in this marriage-census, previous marriage, kids, death and probate but I can't get any handle on this Charles Grande, journalist-leading me to think this probably is Le Grand?

    Anyway-here are my research notes-see what you think:

    1907 Marriage solemnized at The Register Office in the District of Kensington

    No52 20th June 1907
    Charles Grande, 49 years, condition- widower, profession- journalist, residence-32 Ifield Rd, father-Peter Grande deceased- profession of father M.D

    Elizabeth Anne Clarke, 50 years, widow, 32 Ifield Rd, father Henry Calcroft, profession of father-no occupation

    in the prescence of us -R J Martin and K Collier



    This Elizabeth Grand appears on the 1911 cenus as a married servant. Her husband Charles Grande does not appear in the household:

    1911 census transcription details for: 20 Sussex Place S W

    National Archive Reference:

    RG14PN115 RG78PN4 RD2 SD1 ED28 SN185


    Reg. District: Kensington Sub District: Kensington South
    Parish: Kensington Enum. District: 28
    Address: 20 Sussex Place S W
    County: London

    Name Relation Condition/
    Yrs married Sex Age Birth
    Year Occupation Where Born
    GRANDE, Elizabeth Servant Married
    3 years F 52 1859 General Servant Domestic Kent Dover
    PREECE, Allie Gertrude Head Married
    10 years F 29 1882 Dressmaker Kent Hayes


    According to the marriage certificate and 1911 census, Elizabeth was born c 1859 in Dover, Kent and was the widow of a man named Clarke, and her middle initial is A. One woman in the 1901 and 1891 census fits these details. Elizabeth is also living on the same Ifield Rd mentioned in the marriage certificate:


    1901 census transcription details for: 51, Ifield Road, Kensington

    National Archive Reference:
    RG number: RG13 Piece: 36 Folio: 188 Page: 57


    Reg. District: Kensington Sub District: Brompton
    Parish: Kensington Enum. District: 18
    Ecclesiastical District: St Luke Redcliffe Square City/Municipal Borough:
    Address: 51, Ifield Road, Kensington
    County: London

    Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
    Year Occupation ,
    Disability Where Born
    CLARKE, Geo E Head Married M 48 1853 Billiard Marker
    Walworth
    London
    CLARKE, Elizabeth A Wife Married F 43 1858 Cook
    Dover
    Kent


    1891 census transcription details for: 4, Raingate Street, Bury St Edmunds

    National Archive Reference:
    RG number: RG12 Piece: 1450 Folio: 11 Page: 14


    Reg. District: Bury St Edmunds Sub District: Bury St Edmunds
    Parish: Bury St Edmunds Enum. District: 1
    Ecclesiastical District: St Mary City/Municipal Borough: Bury St Edmunds
    Address: 4, Raingate Street, Bury St Edmunds
    County: Suffolk

    Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
    Year Occupation ,
    Disability Where Born
    CLARKE, George Edward Head Married M 38 1853 Barman
    Walworth
    London
    CLARKE, Elizabeth Ann Wife Married F 33 1858
    Dover
    Kent
    CLARKE, George James Son M 12 1879 Scholar
    Bury St Edmunds
    Suffolk
    CLARKE, Charles Wm Son M 10 1881 Scholar
    Bury St Edmunds
    Suffolk


    Regarding the groom Charles Grande, b c 1857. A search of the 1911 census shows no other possible Charles Grande (or variations like Grant, Grandy etc.) born 1857 (+/- 5 years), specifially none who are described as married but their wife is absent from the census. We know that Charles Le Grand was in Parkhurst in 1911 under the name George Jackson.
    In the 1901 census for Parkhurst, Le Grand is described as single. In the 1911 census he was described as married.
    In 1906 Le Grand was released on licence from his 20 year sentence 4 years and 300 plus days early. He then went on to commit the 1908 offence and was sentenced to another 4 years penal servitude.
    Therefore any marriage would have had to have taken place between 1906 and 1908, the only years he was at liberty between the 1901 census and 1911 census.
    This marriage occured in 1907 so fits well. We also know that he was married before the time of his trial as George Jackson (real name stated as Charles Granday) in 1908 as his wife is mentioned.
    The description of Charles at the marriage as a 'widow' is problematic, but then he may not have been truthful about his past to his new bride and would have to come up with a reason why he was single at that time, having in reality just completed a 15 year stretch in prison.

    RE-Charles Grande's father named on the certificate-I have briefly looked at but not come up with much apart from a seemingly unrelated (time-wise) combination of father and son named Peter and Charles Grande.

  • #2
    Thanks very much for posting these notes - very interesting
    Chris

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    • #3
      Hi Debs

      This might be the marriage :

      Surname First name(s) District Vol Page Marriages Dec 1877 (>99%) CalcraftElizabeth AnnDover2a1631 ChandlerEstherDover2a1631 CLARKEGeorge EdwardDover2a1631 PearceWill HDover2a1631

      There seems to be a tree for her on Ancestry but only up to 1871.

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      • #4
        Born Q4 1858 Dover. There are one or two people on Genes Reunited expressing an interest in her, but how much they might know is anyone's guess.

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        • #5
          Probate :
          Attached Files

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          • #6
            From the electorals, Elizabeth seems to have lived at 15 Ifield till very late, then switching to 49 Ifield. I couldn't find Charles Grand(e) in Kensington but there was one Charles Le Grand at 111 Brockley Rise Kensington in 1902.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
              From the electorals, Elizabeth seems to have lived at 15 Ifield till very late, then switching to 49 Ifield. I couldn't find Charles Grand(e) in Kensington but there was one Charles Le Grand at 111 Brockley Rise Kensington in 1902.
              Thanks for all this, Robert.
              I did look at some online trees for Elizabeth but none of them appeared to have this second marriage listed for her so I didn't bother contacting them.

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              • #8
                Bless him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  a bit of Danish research

                  Thank you so much for posting this info, Debs.

                  Aren't you assuming he might have probably lied about his age and about his father's name?

                  Not meaning to highjack this thread, but last week I was in Copenhagen for 3 days and had a comprehensive look into Politiets Efterretninger (a similar newspaper to The London Police Gazette) from 1867 (the year when it starts) to 1877 at their City Archives.
                  - There was a Jens Nielsen wanted by the police in March 1868, with a physical description fitting Le Grand, a ring is prominently mentioned.
                  - An Anders Nielson wanted for forgery of documents on Juli 5, 1870, also with a physical description fitting Le Grand, and a ring he was wearing is also prominently mentioned.
                  - A C. (Christian?) F. Nielson 24 years old, wanted for fraud on Dec. 31, 1874.
                  - A Jens Nielsen wanted for fraud on 17 august, 1875.
                  - There was also a Peter Nielsen who was left out of jail in Juli 7, 1877 and traveled to Malborg with a forged document, but at that time Le Grand was already in London I think?
                  Apart from that, interestingly enough, NO other Nielsens/Nielsons with a criminal record, and I've looked comprehensively from 1867-1877.

                  Of course, the name "Nielson" might have very well been a fake, in which case we're back to square one. ;-)

                  I'll be back in Copenhagen in April, as an archivist there only 2 days ago contacted me about microfilms he located with alphabetic name records from the Copenhagen Crime and Police Court from 1845 on at their National Archives – microfilms he wasn't aware of their existence while I was there.

                  I'm also in contact with their local Police Museum and have asked them to look up for data for unsolved murders in the 1860s-1870s. Just in case...

                  Oh, and so far they assure me they don't have any data on deportations from 1917, but I'll ask again in due time.
                  Best regards,
                  Maria

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for that, Maria.

                    If the groom of this marriage is Charles le Grand and if Charles Le Grand was really born Christian Neilson, then, yes,the father's name surname would be fabricated.
                    Le Grand's given year of birth (apart from the 1891 census) is consistently within the range 1857 +/- 5 years on all the records. It is Christian Neilson's birth year of 1849 that is way out of the range.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      Le Grand's given year of birth (apart from the 1891 census) is consistently within the range 1857 +/- 5 years on all the records. It is Christian Neilson's birth year of 1849 that is way out of the range.
                      Kinda having the feeling he might have lied about his age by a 5-10 years range, especially if he was a good looking fella.
                      So 1849 sounds realistic to me, in fact I was even expecting him to have been born around 1846.

                      Do you also happen to have his (George Jackson's) signature?

                      I'll post more of the Danish stuff in the coming weeks, in due time I might need Rob to clear up my pics and Phil Carter for a more accurate translation, as my reading Danish is at about 80%. (But I asked the locals when in doubt.)
                      Best regards,
                      Maria

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Maria Birbili View Post
                        Kinda having the feeling he might have lied about his age by a 5-10 years range, especially if he was a good looking fella.
                        So 1849 sounds realistic to me, in fact I was even expecting him to have been born around 1846.

                        Do you also happen to have his (George Jackson's) signature?

                        I'll post more of the Danish stuff in the coming weeks, in due time I might need Rob to clear up my pics and Phil Carter for a more accurate translation, as my reading Danish is at about 80%. (But I asked the locals when in doubt.)
                        Why on earth does 1849 sound realistic?
                        No, I don't have George Jackson's signature.

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                        • #13
                          Debs, I feel sure this is Le Grand. For one thing, there seems no record of this doctor Peter Grande. The whole thing seems very dodgy.

                          Unfortunately there seem not to have been any births from the Grande/Clarke marriage. In piano terms, the Grandes did not have a baby Grande.

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                          • #14
                            really interesting
                            Jenni
                            "be just and fear not"

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                            • #15
                              Hi Debs,

                              While I suppose we can't yet be sure, I agree with Robert that this all seems to fit pretty well. Of course, that doesn't mean we can take Le Grand at face value regarding anything he says, such as his father, being an MD, but that in its own way makes sense too, because he was educated SOMEWHERE early in life. That much is made obvious by his record. So a father of means must figure in the equation somewhere. But would Peter Grande even be a Danish name?

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott

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