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  • Le Grand of the strand - General chat

    I've started this one up at the suggestion of Debs for random off topic musings on Charles Le Grand. It's a kind of anything else thread

  • #2
    Possibly???

    Scope and content Nationality and Naturalisation: Nielsen, Carl August, from Denmark. Certificate A1874 issued 5 May 1876.
    Covering dates 1876 Held by The National Archives, Kew Former reference (Department) 54141 Legal status Public Record(s)

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    • #3
      Anything is possible, Harry. Without looking at the full record it's anyone's guess!

      The easiest approach may be to look for a naturalised British citizen named Carl Augustus Nielsen in other UK records after 1876 and see if you can rule him out that way.

      I once looked at the names of sailors on a Danish ship docked in Scotland and would guess over 50% of the men on board had combinations of names that included Christian, Neilson, Anderson and Ohlsen.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
        I once looked at the names of sailors on a Danish ship docked in Scotland and would guess over 50% of the men on board had combinations of names that included Christian, Neilson, Anderson and Ohlsen.
        Too true

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        • #5
          1881 census: 1 Carl Nielsen from Denmark. Born 1861. Would need to see original original record to rule him in or out.

          Even if we ruled him out, we'd be no closer to proving Carl August Nielsen is Legrand. Carl A Nielsen could easily anglicised his name, to what is anybodies guess.

          As you rightly pointed out Debs we would need to see the original record and check out DoB etc to see if we're onto anything.

          The reason why my ears pricked up when I found this record are 1- Legrand is consistently on each census as a naturalised British subject and 2- between 1870 and 1887 there is no other Danish subject naturalised to UK with a similar name to any of Legrand's many identities.

          contrary to popular opinion I do do a little bit of research before posting a wild theory - Just not really enough. Laziness and haste being two of my many faults.

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          • #6
            I was just trying to be helpful was all. If you found Carl in 1891 for sure then he couldn't be LG was my line of thinking.
            If he Anglicised his name it would most likely to be something like Nelson, surely?

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            • #7
              That's the way I worked with the marriage certificate-set out to see if the certificate could relate to any other man named Charles Grande of the same age first.

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              • #8
                We need more threads like this one in other Forums.
                Thanks for setting it up Harry n' Debs
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  I was just trying to be helpful was all.
                  Debs, sorry if the following comment causes any offence, I'm several glasses of wine to the good, no offence is intended. But stop treading on egg shells with me. If I'm talking out my a**e then tell me so. You'd be doing me a favour. I've got a lot of imagination and energy but in this field not much experience so the comments (negative and positive) of JTR legends like yourself and others are a big help in developing my research skills. If I do bite back and defend myself, please take it in the manner in which is intended: That of an inquisitive pupil questioning his master.

                  I've got the office to myself all day tomorrow and not much work to do. Watch this space for more random Legrand stuff. Until then, sweet dreams :-)

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                  • #10
                    Harry:

                    If you think Debs is a legend, get your butt over to the caption threads and see a real legend...me. What wit !
                    On the Ripper stuff, however, Debs is the stuff of legend.
                    To Join JTR Forums :
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                    • #11
                      Any chance any of these “naturalized“ Nielson chaps spot a criminal record on Ancestry (for starters) in the 1870s?


                      Was also wondering what triggered Harry Poland's interest on Le Grand. Sheer curiosity. :-)
                      Best regards,
                      Maria

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                      • #12

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Maria Birbili View Post
                          Any chance any of these “naturalized“ Nielson chaps spot a criminal record on Ancestry (for starters) in the 1870s?


                          Was also wondering what triggered Harry Poland's interest on Le Grand. Sheer curiosity. :-)
                          My interest in primarily with scamsters, con-men and charlatans. I think that Mr Legrand might just squeeze into that catagory :-)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Maria Birbili View Post
                            Any chance any of these “naturalized“ Nielson chaps spot a criminal record on Ancestry (for starters) in the 1870s?


                            Was also wondering what triggered Harry Poland's interest on Le Grand. Sheer curiosity. :-)
                            Originally posted by Harry Poland View Post
                            My interest in primarily with scamsters, con-men and charlatans. I think that Mr Legrand might just squeeze into that catagory :-)
                            I would say you are onto a dead cert there, Mr Poland. You can bet your Barrister's wig on it.

                            Cheers

                            Chris
                            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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                            • #15
                              I found a press clipping the other day that mentioned LeGrand having an office at 10, Agar Street in 1889. As you know, John Arnold (the man who reported the Pinchin Torso 2 days before it appeared) and William Wallace Brodie both lived at 2, Harvey's Buildings, Strand in 1889. Brodie was in Portland Prison from 1877 to 1888. I thought maybe he crossed paths with LeGrand in prison but I don't think LeGrand was in Portland during that time frame? It is curious that Brodie ended up in this same Strand location with these other two men in 1889.


                              #10 Agar Street was actually closer up toward Chandos, not where the black arrow is

                              In the same block, of a large city, lives a man suspected of the ripper murders (LeGrand), the self proclaimed murderer of Alice McKenzie(Brodie) and a man that knows about a torso in the Whitechapel district 2 days before it is deposited there. Remember too, Brodie announced in court in 1889, "I am one of the Whitechapel murderers".

                              I also saw an old thread on these boards that discussed a group of men that were involved in printing the publication Freitheit. One of them was Frederick Schwelm. He and a few other men were arrested for the printing of Freitheit. Schwelm lived in Colville Street just off Tottenham Road about where Alfred Mews is located and just off Charlotte Street. This Charlotte Street is not far from LeGrand's address at Charlotte Street, Portland Place which is a bit to the west. It is also close to where LeGrand found the lady, Berberich, that stole his watch on Nassau Street. Most of the men involved as witnesses or defendants in the case were compositors. We know the man suspected by Claude Mellor of being John Cleary was an ex-compositor for the Globe.

                              I have also mentioned on another thread that John Arnold fits the decription of blotchy man in the Kelly case.

                              Description of John Arnold
                              He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

                              Just to the west out of view on this map, at Charing Cross and fairly close to Agar Street, is Spring Garden which houses the main office of the Metropolitan Board of Works where George Lusk was a board member. On the west side of Agar Street was the Charing Cross Hospital which also housed a medical school.

                              There is a lot more to this story, but I wanted to see if anyone else found these coincidences interesting?

                              Note: I edited out the part about LeGrand being John Cleary because Legrand was in prison in June of 1889. The Pinchin Torso was in Sept.

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