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  • #16
    I wanted to amend my post above about the John Cleary and LeGrand statement.

    Here is Claude Mellors description of who he knew to be John Cleary, ex-compositor formerly attached to the Globe.

    "Age 35, ht. 6ft., comp. fresh, hair and heavy moustache dark, bald, medium build, speaks peculiar, as though he has no roof to his mouth; who about 4 months ago was residing at 2 Savoy Buildings, Strand."

    To me this fits LeGrand fairly well and I would think a foreigner, possibly German or Danish, may speak in that peculiar fashion. Or even someone drunk and slurring his words. Looking at googlemaps and others, it appears that 283 Strand (a given address for one of LeGrand's offices), 367 Strand (The Globe office) and 2 Savoy buildings (address given for John Cleary) are all in a blanket of each other. Maybe someone with better knowledge of the area can shed some light on that?

    It makes me wonder if LeGrand was in fact the, John Cleary, Mellor was talking about. Mellor may not have known him by the name of LeGrand, Grandy etc., when he was arrested in June of 1889. Mellor possibly knew the strange behavior of LeGrand and thus the reason he was alerted when he heard the name connected to Back Church lane and a body. The Freitheit boys apparently had a printing press in Berner Street. I am not clear if this was the Berner Street of Stride fame or one that makes more sense to me, near Charlotte Street in the west end. If it was the one on the east-side, and LeGrand was a compositor,or passing off as one, I can see why Mellor was alerted. LeGrand is often noted with the occupation of engineer. Would a compositor be considered an engineer?

    With LeGrand being in prison in June of 1889, his accomplices would had to have deposited the body in Back Church Lane. Was John Cleary a fool for getting thrown in prison? Or was John Arnold using the alias, John Cleary, a fool for spilling the beans too early about the body?

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    • #17
      King Lud Pub

      One last thing for tonight. John Arnold mentioned the King Lud Pub. Supposedly it was after leaving here that he met a soldier that told him about the body in Back Church Lane.

      The King Lud pub is located at 12, Ludgate Circus. That address is almost in the same block as 83, Farringdon Street and the office of the Evening News, a supposed employer of Charles LeGrand and J H Batchelor during the double event.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
        One last thing for tonight. John Arnold mentioned the King Lud Pub. Supposedly it was after leaving here that he met a soldier that told him about the body in Back Church Lane.

        The King Lud pub is located at 12, Ludgate Circus. That address is almost in the same block as 83, Farringdon Street and the office of the Evening News, a supposed employer of Charles LeGrand and J H Batchelor during the double event.
        Hi Jerry,

        And as you probably know, the Old King Lud was (it's no longer a pub) at one end of Fleet Street, The Strand at the other.

        The pub was also where Emily Edith Smith recognised her attacker with the strange eyes.

        Gary.

        http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1463

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        • #19
          good work

          Hello Jerry. Good work. Keep it up.

          Cheers.
          LC

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          • #20
            Good work, Jerry. Thanks.

            Yes, Agar Street was his later office address.

            Chris Phillips did post some information on casebook about when Grande was in Portland Prison one time. His criminal records on FMP may also give some details about where he was released form or transferred to during his incarcerations. I'll have a look through the ones I have.

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            • #21
              Echo London Middlesex September 24, 1888



              Red Arrow- Corner of Devonshire and Portland Place
              Green Arrow- My best guess for the location of #35, Charlotte Street, Portland Place, residence of LeGrand at the time. I didn't realize how close he lived to 19, Cleveland Street.

              **See revised map below.

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              • #22
                Thanks Jerry !
                More excellent work on your end, pardner.
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                • #23
                  Thanks Howard,

                  It makes you wonder about all the witness descriptions that describe a man carrying a parcel. The parcel may have been his change of clothes.

                  Interesting too that the clothes were "drab" and also contained cuffs and collar. Drab would be of military appearance, would it not? And the collar and cuffs would lend themselves more to a suit?

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                  • #24
                    One minor correction:

                    The paper says Great Portland Street and not Portland Place, which is slightly to the right of Charlotte Street (where it says Bloomsbury and County Court House on my map). I had the red arrow in the wrong place.

                    Revised map:

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Looking at the date this clothing was reported on in the news, and if it is somehow connected to a murder at all, only two recent murders really make sense. Annie Chapman (Sept 8th) and Jane Beadmore (Sept 16th).

                      In this same Echo paper dated September 24, 1888 is the news of the Gateshead murder of Jane Beadmore (Savage).

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                      • #26
                        excellent

                        Hello Jerry. Excellent find.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

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                        • #27
                          Thomas Titley (Chemist)

                          Here's an interesting revelation I have come across. I'm sorry if this is well-known. I can't seem to find anything in search about this guy except in the trial transcript of Legrand in 1889.

                          This is a cross examination of James Hall by Legrand:

                          Cross-examined by Grandy. When you went to Marlborough Street you left me in charge of the house—the coat and waistcoat I have on are not yours; I did not steal them, they were given me by Colonel Dashwood—I did not break open a cash-box and take a pearl brooch out—you first found me in the Strand; I was walking about, and you picked me up and took me out of misery—I did not have £8 from Colonel Dashwood—I did not give Mr. Brown a forged cheque for £6—all the cheques I have received are entered in the account-book—Mr. Titley has the money—I wrote letters for you from dictation and copies in your writing—I wrote a letter to the Evening News stating that I had been molested in Cavendish Square—I went to the Star to try and get it in—I wrote a letter at your dictation to Dr. Morris, that I had been molested by detectives; it does not bear your signature—I kept entries in your books of work done at Agar Street—I went with you to Cheney Gardens to watch Justin McCarthy, and stopped till two o'clock—I am aware you worked for private inquiry—you have never said to me that Demay was your wife—I can prove you lived with her as your wife, I have seen you in the same rooms together; that is all—I cannot say I have ever heard you talking to her about Dr. Morris—I have heard nothing that could suggest to my mind that there was any conspiracy between you and her—you have asked me to go and watch Dr. Morris's house, and I have been there—I gave Mr. Titley the balance with the books; it was about £6—what I have done with the remainder of £46 is shown in the books; there were expenses incurred for the house, you will find it properly down in the books—I have been indicted at a Court of Assize—I nave not been with another man to Kensington to obtain money from a servant girl under false pretences.

                          Thomas Titley of 44 Charlotte Street, Fitzroy Square, a chemist, was tried in 1880 for selling "a noxious drug for an unlawful purpose." Ironically, he was unlawfully "set-up" by the police to sell the drug to a female officer. This drug was used in abortions. Later, in 1887, he treated Helen Turnbull Moodie with drugs to induce abortion. She later died of acute blood poisoning. (I can post the news clippings if anyone is interested)

                          Anyone know if Thomas Titley is the same Titley described in the Grandy trial? I would almost think it has to be based on Titleys address at 44 Charlotte Street.

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                          • #28
                            In July of 1892, Titley was again at Marlborough-Street Court, summoned by Excise authorities for possession of a still for the manufacture of excisable liquors. He was living in Charlotte Street.

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                            • #29
                              Later, in 1887, he treated Helen Turnbull Moodie with drugs to induce abortion. She later died of acute blood poisoning. (I can post the news clippings if anyone is interested)
                              -Dunlop Of The Desert-

                              JD...you never have to ask, amigo. By all means, post it.
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                                Here's an interesting revelation I have come across. I'm sorry if this is well-known. I can't seem to find anything in search about this guy except in the trial transcript of Legrand in 1889.

                                This is a cross examination of James Hall by Legrand:

                                Cross-examined by Grandy. When you went to Marlborough Street you left me in charge of the house—the coat and waistcoat I have on are not yours; I did not steal them, they were given me by Colonel Dashwood—I did not break open a cash-box and take a pearl brooch out—you first found me in the Strand; I was walking about, and you picked me up and took me out of misery—I did not have £8 from Colonel Dashwood—I did not give Mr. Brown a forged cheque for £6—all the cheques I have received are entered in the account-book—Mr. Titley has the money—I wrote letters for you from dictation and copies in your writing—I wrote a letter to the Evening News stating that I had been molested in Cavendish Square—I went to the Star to try and get it in—I wrote a letter at your dictation to Dr. Morris, that I had been molested by detectives; it does not bear your signature—I kept entries in your books of work done at Agar Street—I went with you to Cheney Gardens to watch Justin McCarthy, and stopped till two o'clock—I am aware you worked for private inquiry—you have never said to me that Demay was your wife—I can prove you lived with her as your wife, I have seen you in the same rooms together; that is all—I cannot say I have ever heard you talking to her about Dr. Morris—I have heard nothing that could suggest to my mind that there was any conspiracy between you and her—you have asked me to go and watch Dr. Morris's house, and I have been there—I gave Mr. Titley the balance with the books; it was about £6—what I have done with the remainder of £46 is shown in the books; there were expenses incurred for the house, you will find it properly down in the books—I have been indicted at a Court of Assize—I nave not been with another man to Kensington to obtain money from a servant girl under false pretences.

                                Thomas Titley of 44 Charlotte Street, Fitzroy Square, a chemist, was tried in 1880 for selling "a noxious drug for an unlawful purpose." Ironically, he was unlawfully "set-up" by the police to sell the drug to a female officer. This drug was used in abortions. Later, in 1887, he treated Helen Turnbull Moodie with drugs to induce abortion. She later died of acute blood poisoning. (I can post the news clippings if anyone is interested)

                                Anyone know if Thomas Titley is the same Titley described in the Grandy trial? I would almost think it has to be based on Titleys address at 44 Charlotte Street.
                                Yes, please post the clippings, Jerry. Mr Titley is a distant memory! I don't think anything is known about him, this is all new as far as I'm aware.

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