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Le Grand of the strand - General chat

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    Later, in 1887, he treated Helen Turnbull Moodie with drugs to induce abortion. She later died of acute blood poisoning. (I can post the news clippings if anyone is interested)
    -Dunlop Of The Desert- never have to ask, amigo. By all means, post it.
    Thanks How,

    In searching for an appropriate clip to post for the offense in 1880, I came across a real gem! This not only shows that Titley had a "depraved" character but also that his assistant found a dead infant in his cellar covered in chloride of lime. There are many other news clips about this case that I will post. We now have an abortionist, possibly working for LeGrand as a bookkeeper, that has dead bodies in his cellar covered in chloride of lime. That's some Torso implications if you ask me.

    I'll post the 1887 case in a separate post.

    Lloyds Weekly Newspaper January 16, 1881


    • #32
      Here is one clip on the 1887, Helen Moodie, case.

      London Standard May 5, 1887


      • #33
        This one is a little more detailed about how the cops were involved in the 1880 case.

        Observer December 5, 1880


        • #34
          Dr Sutton (Ticket of leave man)

          Lloyds Weekly News May 22, 1887


          • #35
            I hate to get off track with Titley and Legrand, but I wanted to point out a strange coincidence that has no bearing in this case, but is interesting none the less.

            In 1917 Louis Voison murdered and dismembered Madame Gerard and deposited her parts in a garden nearby. The head and hands were placed in a barrel in the cellar of his residence at 101, Charlotte Street. Unless the street numbers changed over the years, this would be the exact same residence of Titley and Dr Sutton in 1887. It could also be in this same cellar that the dead body of the infant was found covered in chloride of lime that I referenced earlier.

            Here are a few references to the Voison murder with a picture of the cellar, a sketch of Voison and the exact location of 101 Charlotte Street.


   (page 132 for map)


            • #36
              More details on Titley, Sutton and Helen Moodie.

              London Evening News May 5, 1887


              • #37
                I'm sure a version of this has been posted somewhere, but this is straight from the Evening News. The very paper Grand sold his information to.

                Interesting that he and Batchelor were prone to back-stab each other in pursuit of the "blood money". This fits well with the John Arnold story as I theorized at one time that his purpose in announcing the Pinchin Torso was to collect a reward and share it with the others involved in the depositing of the body.

                This story confirms Tom Wescott's proof of the Packer story originating from Grand and Batchelor. In fact, this may be your source, Tom? Sorry if you have posted this before. I looked and couldn't find it.

                London Evening News And Post June 28, 1889 (Sorry for the large text)


                • #38
                  Good find Jerry ! Another one of your gems, buddy
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                  • #39
                    Great find Jerry! ...even though I could only read it from the other end of the room
                    That's interesting about Batchelor having a private inquiry business himself and the two teaming up; I'm surprised no one found Batchelor's business advertised before-unless it's referring to another inquiry agent working on the case and Grande and Batchelor teaming up with him, they representing themselves as Grande and Co (as we know Grande advertised)-so could this is the reason why accounts mention 3 detectives employed by the WVC?


                    • #40

                      Hello Jerry. Well done. Kudos.



                      • #41
                        How, Lynn and Debs,


                        I figured this had been posted at some point. May be another case of additional paper issues becoming available online and a good reason to keep digging through the reports!


                        Thanks! Still waiting for Thomas Conway Jr. to rear his head in one of these issues.


                        I figured the large print would allow you to never leave the comfort of your bed. I'm just that kind of guy! Your welcome.

                        Good thought on the 3rd party. When I read this I assumed they were speaking of Batchelor. Of course, all of my searches for Batchelor's PI agency have come up empty. I always wondered if the 3rd detective was Scanlan. John Meiklejohn always seems to enter my mind as well. With the lack of information available on J.H Batchelor, it makes you wonder if that was an alias?


                        • #42
                          Yes interesting - but again no mention of Le Grand being employed by the WVC.
                          Obviously when Le Grand got five years penal servitude, the Evening News became slightly embarrassed by their connection to him.
                          If I was the Evening News I would have muddied waters by saying it wasn't just them who were taken in by him - but they assumed he was bona fide as he had been in he employment of the WVC. But inevitably nothing is said about this.
                          Inevitably because I am fairly sure he was never employed by the WVC. Instead I would suggest he was the man reported to be touting to be taken on by them just after the Stride murder - exactly the time he was making a nuisance of himself in the area.
                          Le Grand was a liar and a con man. When asked by Sergeant White I would suggest Le Grand merely lied about his connection to the WVC to give himself extra credence.
                          And that is why there is the discrepancy about three detectives being employed by the WVC - not two - Le Grand and Batchelor.


                          • #43
                            Any chance this is LeGrand in 1887 harassing witnesses of the Lipski case?

                            Lloyds Weekly News
                            Sunday, September 4, 1887, London, Middlesex


                            • #44
                              A Burglar Clerks Career

                              This guy seems to possibly be a fit for Legrand. Legrand was in prison for larceny and was on ticket of leave in 1884. This man was a ticket of leave man in August of 1884. The age is about five years off on the old side, though.

                              The only things that don't fit are: 1) This article states he was sentenced in 1880 to five years;LeGrand was sentenced to eight years and served seven of it starting in 1877. Interesting though that Legrand would have finished his seventh year in July of 1884 and could in reality be a ticket of leave man in August. 2) He had to have served a long time for 18 cases against him including this one, but I can't find any of the cases for a Charles Grant even this one in 1885? His previous conviction in 1877 was under the alias Christian Nelson so I'm wondering if the new alias of Charles Grant worked to hide his identity?

                              Another news clip has this guy residing with a Mrs. Whiteman at Gillingham Street which I believe is near Pimlico? This guy has several more aliases in this case. Dr Harvey, James Cole and Montague & c.

                              London Evening News
                              London, Middlesex
                              May 20, 1885


                              • #45
                                Hi Jerry

                                Charles Grant's 1880 conviction for five years was as Henry Montague. He was tried at the Central Criminal Court. In this 1885 case he was charged on just one of the indictments, found guilty and sentenced to 14 years because of his previous 1885 conviction.