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  • Le Grand Convictions

    I'm posting this on a new thread as a test. I tried to add to the old Le Grand thread this afternoon and although my post seemed to go through as normal it only shows on the main page and the actual message doesn't appear on the thread.

    This is a repeat of the links to Le Grand's Old Bailey trials which were originally posted on the thread some time ago but disappeared, plus some images from the criminal registers, including the 1887 Christian Nelson conviction and a conviction from May 1887 which I haven't yet verified is the same Le Grand. This conviction came 2 months after his conviction for assault on the prostitute Pasquier.
    Demay's conviction is also included in the images.

    http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...randy#highligh
    1889 Charles Colnette Grandy theft extortion.
    http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...ande#highlight
    1891 deception forgery
    http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...ande#highlight
    1891 theft extortion
    http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...rand#highlight
    1891 deception forgery

    photos
    1 General quarter Sessions, Westminster, Middlesex 9th July 1877
    Christian Nelson, Larceny and receiving after previous conviction, 8 years penal servitude, 7 years police supervision


    2 Central Criminal Court, Old bailey, London, 24th June 1889
    chas. Colonette Grandy, conspiracy to procure a person to commit perjury and to defraud. 2 years imprisonment


    3 central Criminal Court, Old Bailey, London, 24th June 1889
    Amelia Marie Pourquoi Demay, conspiracy to procure a person to commit perjury and to defraud, 18 calendar months imprisonment.


    4 central Criminal Court, Old Bailey, London, 16th November 1891
    Charles Grande, sending letter demanding money with menaces, 20 years penal servitude.


    5 Adjourned General Session, Clerkenwell, Middlesex 23rd may 1887
    Charles Le Grand Larceny in dwellinghouse and receiving and Larceny and receiving, 8 months imprisonment

  • #2
    Hi Debra,

    Great stuff. Thank you very much.

    It makes you wonder why a twice-convicted sleaze [by 1888] had such a cosy relationship with Sir Charles Warren, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

    But, then, perhaps, the whole Matthew Packer episode was just another instance of Metropolitan Police bollocks during the WM?

    Regards,

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon Wood; September 8, 2009, 02:24 PM. Reason: spolling

    Comment


    • #3
      Debs:

      Let me know if you see this response to your threadstarting post.

      Again,I apologize for the posts disappearing a year and a half ago...that was my mistake that weekend.

      Do you know whether Le Grand served that 20 year sentence he recieved in 1891 ? Ferchrissakes, that guy must have loved being on the inside !

      He received 28 years and 8 months total sentencing from 1877 to 1891.

      I wonder how much of that he served.

      Thank you again for starting this thread up. For Maisie.
      To Join JTR Forums :
      Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
        Hi Debra,

        Great stuff. Thank you very much.

        It makes you wonder why a twice-convicted sleaze [by 1888] had such a cosy relationship with Sir Charles Warren, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

        But, then, perhaps, the whole Matthew Packer episode was just another instance of Metropolitan Police bollocks during the WM?

        Regards,

        Simon
        Hi Simon,

        Thanks.
        The alias of 'Le Grand of the Strand' only came about in 1888. I'm sure no one (in Whitechapel that is) had the foggiest about who this guy really was, and any of his previous convictions, which maybe more than two before '88 if the '87 entry is him, as in his '77 conviction he also had previous.
        Regarding Packer, note the 'conspiracy to procure a person to commit perjury' conviction. A lot of Le Grand's criminal career entailed bullying others into saying or doing exactly what he wanted as part of a bigger plan.

        Debs

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by How Brown View Post
          Debs:

          Let me know if you see this response to your threadstarting post.

          Again,I apologize for the posts disappearing a year and a half ago...that was my mistake that weekend.

          Do you know whether Le Grand served that 20 year sentence he recieved in 1891 ? Ferchrissakes, that guy must have loved being on the inside !

          He received 28 years and 8 months total sentencing from 1877 to 1891.

          I wonder how much of that he served.

          Thank you again for starting this thread up. For Maisie.
          Hi How,
          Yeah, this thread works ok, it's the other one that isn't taking any more messages.

          I've not been able to trace him after his 1901 so I'm not sure how long he served of the 20 year sentence. He won't have done 20 years as it was a penal servitude sentence and they were always cut short, supposedly for good behaviour but there were set periods that had to be gone through, eg. x amount of months in solitary, then x amount of years of the sentence served before they were given a 'ticket of leave' , where they had to report to police.

          The imprisonment sentences are quite severe, even though they appear quite short. Two years was the maximum sentence you could be imprisoned. This must have been a less favourable sentence for crims. I've seen an example in the registers where a gang of men had been found guilty and sentenced for exactly the same crimes, four of the gang got 5 years penal servitude, 1 of the gang got 18 months imprisonment....and he was the one with the previous! I think hard labour and flogging probably accompanied imprisonment sentences.

          Debs

          Comment


          • #6
            Debs:

            Thanks very much for replying. I cannot understand why the other thread won't take your post. Its not locked or closed to posting.

            Some men are certainly strange when it comes to committing crimes, aren't they ? I'd think after one eff up, I'd learn my lesson. The food and company in the slammer alone would be sufficient deterrent I'd think,

            How
            To Join JTR Forums :
            Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

            Comment


            • #7
              The "French" Colonel In Court 1889

              Debs put up the link to 4 incidents already, but here's the transcript to one of 'em in order that we can all see it on the same page:


              AMELIA MARIE POURQUOI DEMAY, CHARLES COLNETTE GRANDY, Theft > extortion, 24th June 1889.


              Reference Number: t18890624-563
              Offence: Theft > extortion
              Verdict: Guilty > no_subcategory
              Punishment: Imprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour
              User Wiki: Corrections; Add Information
              See original
              563. AMELIA MARIE POURQUOI DEMAY (30) and CHARLES COLNETTE GRANDY (36) , Unlawfully conspiring together, and with other persons, falsely to accuse Malcolm Alexander Morris of having made a promise of marriage to Demay, with intent to extort money.
              MESRES. LOCKWOOD, Q. C., and BESLEY Prosecuted; MR. KEITH FETCH Defended Grandy; MR. CANDY, Q. C., Defended Demay, but did not appear until late in the case.
              GEORGE HENRY LEWIS . I am a solicitor, of Ely Place—after the action of Demay v. Morris was commenced, with the concurrence of the prosecutor's family solicitor the matter was transferred into my hands—I produce the original writ by Amelia Demay against M. A. Morris, issued on 25th February, 1889, in the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court, for breach of promise of marriage, and for slander, claiming £2,000 damages—I also produce a letter of 21st February from Mr. Hatton, a solicitor, which was handed to me with other papers, and was produced by Mr. Candy, who represented Demay, before the Magistrate; that letter preceded the writ—the statement of claim was delivered on 8th March, stating that the plaintiff had suffered damage by breach of marriage by the defendant—the statement of Mr. Morris in reply is dated 5th April, 1889, denying the promise—on 15th April the matter was transferred to me—I got an order for particulars; the first particulars were delivered on 6th May, 1889, stating that the promise was verbal, made on 21st March, 1886, in the first floor front sitting-room of the plaintiff's house, 85, Bolsover Street, and that the refusal to marry consisted in the defendant withdrawing himself from companionship and society of the plaintiff—I then had an order for further and better particulars—in consequence of that I wrote a letter to Mr. Hatton, protesting against this persecution to which Mr. Morris was subjected, in fact he complained that his life was a perfect misery—I produce a letter of Grandy's, dated April 29th, and in consequence of my reply to that Grandy brought an action against me for libel; I put in a statement of defence, and I do not suppose I shall hear anything more of it.
              Cross-examined by MR. KEITH FRITH. I have seen Grandy at my office, not in connection with this case, but as a private detective in connection with the Parnell case—I did not recognise him until he put the question to me at Marlborough Street—I then remembered him as coming to my office dressed in a fur coat, in company with a man named Scanlan, who, I believe, had been in the police, and who brought me a letter of introduction from somebody connected with the Irish Times, asking me to employ him as a detective, which I refused—I remember also on a later occasion Grandy coming alone and pressing me to employ him as a detective, alleging that he could give me very wonderful information, and stating that he had great facilities; I refused—he never was
              See original
              employed by me in any way—it did not come to my knowledge that he had been employed by Mr. Soames, nor do I believe it—I do not know that he had been shadowing Pigott and Mr. Labouchere; I do not believe it; Mr. Soames is a highly honourable solicitor; but if the prisoner was employed by the Times it only shows what an escape I had in his coming and wanting employment from me; however, I should have refused to have anything to do with him—the action he brought against me for libel is still pending; the libel consisted in my having stated that, whilst he was living with this woman Demay (which he was) he had been guilty of misconduct against Mr. Morris, and that he had suffered two months' imprisonment for an assault upon a poor prostitute—when I first saw him I did not understand that he was a private detective; I only understood that as a perfect stranger he brought his card; I had never heard of such a man—he came with Scanlan, who brought a letter of introduction—I did not know Scanlan as a private detective; I had heard the name, and I believe there was a man of that name in the Police force—I employed Mr. Clark; he is a superannuated inspector of police in possession of a pension.
              Re-examined. I cannot fix the date when Grandy came and asked for employment—it was before the inquiry commenced into the letter part of the Parnell case; some little time before Piggott's examination, which was in February last.
              MALCOLM ALEXANDER MORRIS . I am a Fellow of the R. C. S. of Edinburgh and a Member of the R. C. S. of London—I have lived at 8, Harley Street, Cavendish Square, for two years; before that I lived for ten years in Montague Square—I have made skin diseases a specialty; I am surgeon in charge of the skin department of St. Mary's Hospital, and am lecturer in that medical school—I am also a member of seven or eight societies connected with medicine—my practice has been extensive; my name is well known in the profession—I am forty years of age; I was married in July, 1872, and have four children—my eldest boy is sixteen—I know Mr. Archibald Forbes, the war correspondent for the newspapers—in consequence of a letter I received from him in November, 1887, a Mr. Hester called upon me and consulted me, and in consequence of that visit I went to see him at 35, Charlotte Street, so that I might see him undressed and in bed—a woman opened the door to me; she had on a dressing-gown—I should not know her again—I asked her where my patient was—she said upstairs—I went up to the attic at the top of the house, where I saw him—a nurse was attending on him, who I heard had been in the family for some time—Mr. Hester was an ex-taxing master in bankruptcy, and was a gentleman in reduced circumstances—his surroundings were of great discomfort; it was an exceedingly poor, miserable sort of place, not suitable for a gentleman who was suffering from a mortal disease—I had told him previously in my consulting-room that his only chance was to go into a properly constituted hospital—there is a private hospital kept by a lady, Mrs. Marmade—I have no interest whatever in that hospital—I advised him to move, and he was removed shortly afterwards—I attended him daily, sometimes twice a day, up to the February, 1888, when he died—I attended him gratuitously the whole time—on 16th February, 1889, I received a letter signed "Amelia Demay"—I had no knowledge of any woman of that name—I had never been in a house in Bolsover Street in my life—the
              See original
              whole story in the letter is an absolute fabrication and lie from beginning to end—I afterwards received a writ, dated 25th February, issued by Mr. Fk. Hatton, of 150, Strand—subsequently I received a letter dated 21st February, 1889, and another dated 27th February, 1889—I had then consulted my family solicitors, and afterwards, with their consent, put the matter in the hands of Mr. George Lewis—I first saw the prisoner Grandy when he called at my house—he told me he had a friend coming from Denmark, who was suffering from severe skin disease, who wished to put himself under my care in my house—I asked him the name of his friend; he said Captain Ohlsen, and that he was a Dane—I said I could not take him into my house—he said perhaps I could take him into some private hospital—he said he had heard of a private hospital in York Place, and he asked me for a card—he said his friend was a wealthy man, perfectly capable of paying for advice—I gave him a card, and wrote on it the name and address of Mrs. Marmade, 28, Baker Street; a lady named Bates was a nurse there; she had acted as nurse for me in some cases—I cannot recollect the date of Grandy's call, but I think it was a fortnight before I received the first letter of 16th February—I think I next saw Grandy a week or ten days before Easter—I saw him outside my house; it was in the morning, about the time I receive patients—he was there for several hours; he walked up and down on the opposite side, constantly looking at the house; one of my servants called my attention to him—after that he followed me and my wife and my servants, and generally produced a reign of terror in the house—he followed them wherever they went, so that they were actually frightened to leave the house—he followed me for hours together, and made my life an actual burden—he also followed my wife and my servants—I don't know the names of my servants—he followed me to my patients' houses, and he has waited till I have come out, and then followed me again—about this time I was attending upon Lord Lytton—one wet Sunday afternoon I took a cab from my door to Stratford Place—the prisoner was standing at the corner of Harley Street and Cavendish Square—he took a hansom cab, and followed mine—I went to Stratford Place, and held a consultation, and then I went to Sir James Paget about a bulletin to be issued next morning as to Lord Lytton's condition—after staying some time, I went to Bryanston Square, Sir George Campbell's house, where Lord Lytton was staying—I dismissed my cab, and the prisoner dismissed his, and stood waiting at the corner of the square—I went in and saw Lord Lytton—it was a matter of considerable importance—he noticed something was amiss with me—I told him what had occurred—I came out again, and hailed a passing hansom—Grandy rushed after my hansom, flourishing a stick; but as there was no other cab he could not follow—this persecution has occurred constantly—to my knowledge I never in my life saw Demay till I saw her at the police-station—I never had any conversation with her such as has been suggested—at last this persecution became unbearable, and I went to Mr. Lewis, and then we went to Marlborough Street—I may mention that the prisoner followed me once to the police-station, where I asked the inspector for protection against him—I showed him standing outside to the inspector; but the inspector said he could not protect me, and the only thing was to go through a public trial, which I did not shrink from doing—I saw a card produced by Grandy at the Police-court—I gave that card to a man
              See original
              I believe to be Grandy, who left the name of Ohlsen—I afterwards received this letter of 21st April.
              Cross-examined by Demay. My friend occupied a room at the top of the lady's hospital; it had not a very low roof—I was not unfaithful with you in Bolsover Street, I swear absolutely—I did not come to see you twice a week at Bolsover Street for five months; that is absolutely untrue—I did not give you a fancy performing dog.
              Grandy here stated that he wished to defend himself, and MR. K. FRITH retired from the case.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. You menaced me with a stick at the corner of Bryanston Square—you were probably ten or fifteen yards away at the time you ran towards me with the stick in the air—my servants are both here—I believe they told about what happened to them—I saw Miss Pratt when she was in Charles Street; I don't know where she is—she was the nurse in charge of Mr. Hester at the time; I have not seen her since he died—I have never seen you in Demay's company outside the house—I did not see you at 35, Charlotte Street—it has not been insinuated to me that you would be a witness in the civil action against me—my consulting-room is my back parlour—I have seen you when I have come out into the hall to say good-bye to patients—my solicitor has employed ex-Inspector Clarke to watch my house, 8, Harley Street; his instructions were to find out about your character—I have employed detectives myself—I was obliged to have protection to keep these people away from my front door, the police would not do it for me.
              JAMES HALL . I lived at 3, York Place, Baker Street, up to last Saturday—I was employed as clerk and servant to Grandy—I have been connected with him in that capacity since October, 1888, when he was living at 35, Charlotte Street, with Demay—they lived there up to last March—I stayed in the house on several occasions—they lived there together as man and wife—I afterwards continued in Grandy's employment when they moved to 3, York Place, in March—they lived there as man and wife—I was secretary and manager of the household matters—I opened the door and attended to the servants—I had no salary; I had board and lodging for my services—Grandy at this time had an office in the Strand and afterwards at 10, Agar Street—I attended there and received customers who came for inquiry purposes—no business was transacted when we were at Agar Street; we were on the look out and ready for it—I wrote letters for him—this of 16th February is in my writing; I copied it from Grandy's dictation—I believe the signature to it to be in Demay's writing; I have seen her write—I directed the envelope, Grandy gave me the address—I don't remember if I posted it—I asked no questions about it—it was written just before we left Charlotte Street—I know Grandy's writing—I have heard him spoken of as the French Colonel—I think Grandy wrote this letter of 27th February, 1889, but I don't speak with certainty—all this draft of the letter of 21st April is in Grandy's writing, and the letter "F" is in his writing too—after I gave evidence before the Magistrate, I received these letters of June 5, 8, 10, and 11 from Grandy (The letters alluded to were put in and read)—I heard of this proposed action against Dr. Morris—Grandy asked me several questions about it, if I thought there was any ground for a breach of promise action against some party, not naming the female prisoner, and I said I really could not see any ground for action in the
              See original
              matter—that was about December—it was to be brought by some lady; I was not informed who it was—he spoke of Demay as "Madame"—he consulted me so frequently about the action that it began to grow tedious towards the finish—on one occasion he said that instead of the lady he had represented bringing the action it was madame's sister, who had been connected with Dr. Morris, and she was dead; that was after he had received a summons for Marlborough Street, as we were walking through the streets round Manchester Square, I think in company with another party, Lynch—he showed us the summons—he said this action was not from the party whom he had represented to me, but the lady, he was sorry to say, was madame's sister, who was dead and six feet under ground—I don't know if madame was to take her place—I was not to give any evidence that I know of—I remember a letter from Grandy of 10th June—I introduced Lynch to him—"You introduced me to Lynch, and Lynch introduced that man Walker, who of course will be the cause of my case before the jury being refused, and me found guilty"—that refers to obtaining Walker to commit perjury—he never talked to me about Walker; I never saw the man, only while he was in Marlborough Street—Grandy told me frankly that Lynch had found him a man who would come and swear in Court that he had seen madame and the doctor together—I knew he was going to procure the man—when he says, "That would not have happened if Lynch had not introduced me to Walker," that refers to the same thing—I knew what it referred to.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. When you went to Marlborough Street you left me in charge of the house—the coat and waistcoat I have on are not yours; I did not steal them, they were given me by Colonel Dashwood—I did not break open a cash-box and take a pearl brooch out—you first found me in the Strand; I was walking about, and you picked me up and took me out of misery—I did not have £8 from Colonel Dashwood—I did not give Mr. Brown a forged cheque for £6—all the cheques I have received are entered in the account-book—Mr. Titley has the money—I wrote letters for you from dictation and copies in your writing—I wrote a letter to the Evening News stating that I had been molested in Cavendish Square—I went to the Star to try and get it in—I wrote a letter at your dictation to Dr. Morris, that I had been molested by detectives; it does not bear your signature—I kept entries in your books of work done at Agar Street—I went with you to Cheney Gardens to watch Justin McCarthy, and stopped till two o'clock—I am aware you worked for private inquiry—you have never said to me that Demay was your wife—I can prove you lived with her as your wife, I have seen you in the same rooms together; that is all—I cannot say I have ever heard you talking to her about Dr. Morris—I have heard nothing that could suggest to my mind that there was any conspiracy between you and her—you have asked me to go and watch Dr. Morris's house, and I have been there—I gave Mr. Titley the balance with the books; it was about £6—what I have done with the remainder of £46 is shown in the books; there were expenses incurred for the house, you will find it properly down in the books—I have been indicted at a Court of Assize—I nave not been with another man to Kensington to obtain money from a servant girl under false pretences.
              Re-examined. During our conversations I told Grandy I had been in an Assize Court; I continued in his employment after that—this letter is
              See original
              in my writing; Grandy dictated it (This letter, addressed to the Editor of the "Evening News," stated that as he was walking across Cavendish Square he was attacked by a lot of ruffians, who he was informed were styled private detectives, and were planted there by some eminent doctor)—they did not attack me or the Colonel—I was walking across Cavendish Square, and Clarke's son, I think it was, pointed me out, and said, "There goes the French Colonel's man"—Grandy then dictated the letter—the "eminent physician" is meant for Dr. Morris—Grandy said it might draw something out of him; meaning it might draw money—I never heard him mention any sum as likely to be got from Dr. Morris—the letter was not published—he took it to the Star office, and showed it to them; they said the party who wrote the letter had better take action against the parties who had created the disturbance—the letter did not appear in the public papers.
              HENRIETTA SIMPSON . I am under-housemaid in the service of Dr. Morris, and have been there nine months—shortly before Easter the prisoner Grandy came to the door and asked if we had a coachman living in the house—I called the other servant, Gilbert—a day or two after Grandy stopped me in the street, and asked me if Mr. Morris was in—I told him I was not at liberty to talk about Mr. Morris, or his plans or his whereabouts—he then said he was on behalf of a poor girl whom Mr. Morris had ruined; and he asked me if I was aware that Mr. Morris kept a bad house in Baker Street—he only spoke to me that once—I have often seen him walking up and down outside the house—he said he would reward me if I would give him any information about Mr. Morris—he did not say what the reward would consist of.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. You have never menaced me—you came and tapped me on the shoulder—I was rather frightened by the way you looked at me—you did not use any hard words—I have never seen you with other people—I have seen you molest Mr. Morris, walking after him and making grimaces behind his back, and running after him—I was at the top of the area by the gate.
              MARY GILBERT . I have been parlourmaid in Dr. Morris's service for four years—I remember Grandy coming to the house before Easter, and asking if the coachman was in; I had seen him before, but not spoken to him—I said, "No"—he said, "Does he live here?"—I said, "No"—he said, "What time will he be here?"—I said I could not say—he said, "Will it be at nine?"—I said, "It might be nine, ten, eleven, or twelve"—he asked if Mr. Morris was in—I said, "Yes"—he said, "Is he going away?"—I said, "No;" and if he was it had nothing to do with him—on that he pulled out his watch and went away with Hall—I never spoke to him on any other occasion—I saw him after this and once before, walking up and down in front of the house—every time I opened the door he stood and glared, sometimes making faces and pointing with his umbrella—I was frightened.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. You were on the opposite side of the way—I have seen you stop people and speak to them, and you stopped the postman one morning—I was frightened at your haunting the house as you did—I have seen you following Dr. Morris in his carriage, and following my lady in her carriage—one day you followed her down the streets to Marshall and Snelgrove's—I know Mr. Hall by seeing him; he spoke to me first the morning you asked me for the coachman; he
              See original
              was with you—I have seen detectives outside the house—I don't know in whose employ they were.
              HARRIET PALMER . I am the wife of Henry Palmer, and live at 85, Bolsover Street—the female prisoner came to lodge there in September, 1885, and remained about twelve months—during that time I never saw Dr. Morris there—I never saw him there at all, to my knowledge, during the time Demay was there—she was living with a man, not Grandy—I first saw Grandy the day she went away; he was there when she moved; that was the last I saw of them until a day or two ago—the man she was living with was called Demay; they had three rooms, two on the first floor and a room at the top, used as a kitchen—I believe they were living as man and wife—they slept together, so far as I know.
              Cross-examined by Demay. I could not swear that—I don't think I have ever seen Dr. Morris there—I don't remember ever seeing him till I saw him at Marlborough Street—I never saw you conduct yourself in an immoral way.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. I have never seen you in the house—to my knowledge you did not help to move the furniture; you were there while it was being moved—I have been to Charlotte Street with Demay, not to visit her, I went to the house when it was to be let or sold.
              ELIZABETH WALSH . I live now at 41, Carlton Road, Maida Vale—I used to live at 243, Elgin Avenue, Maida Vale—the prisoners lodged in my house as man and wife from the end of September, 1886, to the beginning of December, about ten weeks—they were known under the name of Mr. and Mrs. or Madame Grandy during that time—they had one bedroom and slept together—they left in December, 1886.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. I saw no immoral conduct in the house while you were there—you took three rooms—I never saw you and Demay in bed, but you only had one room—she called you her husband—I cannot say she had told me so in your presence—I am certainly not aware she was your housekeeper—I should not have taken you unless you had said you were man and wife—you paid the rent—the rooms were taken in your name—you lived as quite respectable people, the same as an ordinary man and wife would live.
              VALLET BROWN (Interpreted). I lived at 35, Charlotte Street, last July and August, when the prisoners lived there as man and wife, he as Mr. Grandy and she as Madame Demay—I left there at the end of October—when they were living together men visited Demay; Grandy knew it, and sometimes he went into the kitchen, sometimes he went away, and sometimes he waited.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. I am not married—I call myself Mrs. Brown, it looks better—I am German—Brown is a nickname, my real name is Minnie Groser—I have been in England seven years—I have been doing what your wife did for a living—I am an unfortunate; I did the same before I came to England—I am twenty-five years old—I have not been living with a man who was taken up for cheques—I did not bring with me a Japanese man to 35, Charlotte Street; he kept me there—I went with him to Liverpool, then spent six weeks in the country, and came back to where you were living—I did not go on the streets during the time the Japanese kept me—after he left I went on the streets again—I was not turned out of the house—I stayed two months afterwards—the Japanese man gave me £50
              See original
              Cross-examined by Demay. When I was going to leave your house every man I brought home you called a blackguard—I don't remember anybody coming and breaking a window.
              ALLENE WILLIAMS (Interpreted). I have known Demay nine years—two or three months ago she called on me where I lived, at 23, Bolsover Street—I had not seen her for perhaps four or five months before—she sent me a letter asking me to call on her, and I went to her place, 35, Charlotte Street, and she asked me to come to the Court and say that I had seen a doctor at her place, and that I had heard the doctor promise her marriage—she promised me £5 if I came to the Court; I said no, because I did not want her to tell lies—she came twice to my place afterwards to ask me the same thing again—I gave her the same reply on each occasion.
              Cross-examined by Demay. Our conversation was in French—you asked me if I remembered having been many times to your place in Bolsover Street—you did not ask me if I recollected the conversation we had relative to a doctor, a medical man—you spoke of £5 down and £5 afterwards—on one occasion when I was ill I sent to you for some money, and you sent me 5s.—you did not come to see my husband when he was ill, before he was taken to the madhouse; you never came to see him—5s. was all you gave me.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. You were in the parlour at 35, Charlotte Street, when I came to the house—you were not present at the conversation; madame said she wanted to speak to me alone, and sent you away, and you heard nothing of it—my real name is Ellen Max—I was earning my living like madame, not at the present time.
              Re-examined, Grandy was living with madame.
              ALFRED WALKLING . I live at 28, Halkin Street, Sidney Street, Mile End, and am a porter—about the middle of last April Lynch came to me, and took me to a house in York Street, Baker Street—I saw no one there—about a week after I and Lynch were walking in the Strand, and we met Grandy—Lynch said to Grandy, "This is the man I was going to introduce you to"—I went with them to Short's—Grandy told Lynch that madame had gone over the road to the solicitors; that was nearly opposite, and he thought she was being watched, and he said to him, "Go and see if she is being followed;" Lynch then went away, and left me and Grandy alone together—Grandy then said, "Would you mind coming to the Court to give evidence in a breach of promise of marriage case? I will give you £5 when you go into the Court, and another £5 before you go in the box"—he told me it was a doctor, and he said, "You must say that you saw a lady and gentleman walking arm-in-arm down a certain street, which I will show you; I will show you the lady and the gentleman"—I said, "Very well, sir"—I had to meet him on the Easter Monday, I think it was, at three o'clock, by appointment, at the Globe, I think, near Baker Street Station—I did not meet him—the next time I saw him was in Marlborough Street—at the interview I had with him he said he was bringing an action against Mr. Lewis, and he showed me a letter from his solicitor's, in red ink.
              Cross-examined. "When I saw you in the Strand was the first time I ever saw you to the best of my belief, and that first time you asked me about committing perjury—you talked to Lynch first, but when you took me into Short's the first thing you talked about was this affair—the converssation
              See original
              in Short's wineshop lasted, I should think, a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes—I only saw you afterwards at the Police-court—I was to say I had seen them arm-in-arm—Lynch overheard half the conversation, the first part of it—he knew as well as you what I was going for, and what I was introduced to you for—Lynch came into the public-house and had a drink afterwards; he told you madame had gone out—you said you would give me £10 if I would so into the box, and you said the case would never come into Court, and the doctor would pay it; and "As soon as you get into Court I will put £10 into your hands, and you will bunk or slope as soon as you like"—I have not said that before—I thought of it afterwards—I have received no money from you, I could not get the chance—Lynch was talking about it first when he brought me up to you, but I cannot recollect the words exactly.
              Re-examined. I was in the Army at one time, and I was discharged with as good a character as I could get—since then I have been working as a porter.
              ADA BATES . I am single, and live at 28, York Place, Baker Street—I am a professional nurse—that house is a private hospital, carried on by Mrs. Marmade—I have been there 2 1/2 years—late in the evening of 26th February Grandy called—Mrs. Marmade was out, and as I do business for her when she is out I spoke to him—he said he had a friend who wanted to be treated by Mr. Morris for skin disease; he was a captain, and had we a room we could give him?—I said yes, we had a room—he did not ask about terms; people generally do—he began talking about Mr. Morris—he sent a card in, but he had it back again—it was the card I saw produced at the Police-court by his counsel—Mr. Morris always sent cards like it—Grandy said Mr. Morris had got himself into a nice mess, he was being sued for breach of promise of marriage by a lady friend of his, she claimed £2,000 damages—I said I did not believe it—he said I might believe it, for the newspapers would soon be full of it, and that the writ had been served—he spoke very loudly, in a much louder voice than people generally do their business in—people in the hall and passing could hear what he was saying; it was not at all private—he made an appointment to come the following Friday to see Mrs. Marmade; I said she would be in then—he did not come; no gentleman came; he never came again.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. I don't remember your saying anything about Mr. Hester; I don't believe you did; two men called before and asked about him—he was dead when you called; I had nursed him—you asked after other people in the house—I don't think you asked for Miss Pratt—I did not tell you she was at Brighton; I did not know it; I know nothing about her—Miss Pratt had stayed with Mr. Hester till he died; she was an old servant, and helped me nurse him; I know nothing about her—you spoke in a louder voice, if anything, than you are speaking in now—it was quite loud enough to be heard in the street—I don't suppose the door was open.
              WILLIAM JAMES (Police Serjeant D). I have known Demay seven or eight years, and Grandy three years, or a little more, as Charles Grandy or Charles Grand, and he is better known as the French Colonel—in March, 1887, he was in custody at the Marlborough Street Police-court, and Mr. Newton, the magistrate, directed me to make special inquiries about him—he was remanded twice, and on the last occasion Mrs. Demay came
              See original
              to the Court, and stated in her evidence, in my hearing, that she was living with Grandy—Demay has been getting her living as a prostitute—since January, 1886, I have seen Grandy in her company hundreds of times, I may say—with the exception of five or six weeks, when he was employed in Great Tower Street in 1886 at 30s. a week, and discharged for incompetency, I have not known him in any employment—I have seen him in company with other prostitutes hundreds of times—he lives on them.
              Cross-examined by Demay. I was present at Marlborough Street Police court when Grandy charged a woman with stealing his watch and chain—she was discharged.
              Cross-examined by Grandy. I have been directed by my superior officer to attend the Court when cases you have been in have been heard—I did not know you had an office; I have heard you had—I attended as a witness at Bow Street when you appeared on a summons, at the instance of Batchelor, for assaulting him in the Strand—Mr. Bridge dismissed the summons—I knew nothing about the case, I only knew your character—I gave evidence—I know Planette, the woman you charged with stealing your watch and chain; she was discharged—she is not a friend of mine—I did not bring her to Bow Street—I spoke to her there—I know Mr. Ward—I believe you are living on prostitutes—I have seen you continually with Demay; you have walked Regent Street, and molested other women, and charged them at the Police-court, and all to clear them from that street in order to have the whole street clear for that woman with you.
              Grandy, in his defence, denied that any conspiracy had existed between himself and Demay, and said they kept a respectable boarding-house.
              GUILTY .
              GRANDY— Two Years' Hard Labour. DEMAY— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.
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              • #8
                Thanks, How
                While I'm here,In light of the certain blog link that was posted on casebook recently, I'd like to point out the date of the first listed conviction of LeGrand alias Charles Grandy as Christian Nelson;

                1 General quarter Sessions, Westminster, Middlesex 9th July 1877
                Christian Nelson, Larceny and receiving after previous conviction, 8 years penal servitude, 7 years police supervision


                -LeGrand was released in 1884 on ticket of leave (info courtesy of Gerry Nixon and his article Le Grand of the Strand and Scotland Yard Investigates by Evans and Rumbelow)

                ...And Ivan Siscovitch alias Charles Grandy;

                Allan Pinkerton Thirty Years a Detective St Louis 1884 p373

                Susscovitch is now in jail in Ohio for forgery, and when his term expires,he will be sent back to England to answer for the murder of Mrs. Chapman, the discovery of his commission of that deed not having been made until he had been tried for the forgery in this country.

                and

                Francias Folsom, Our police a history of the Baltimore force from the first watchman to the latest appointee. Baltimore, Md 1888

                On April 10, 1877 Becker, Elliot and Herring were arrested by Captain Allaire and a squad of police from the Fourteenth precinct. They were inhabiting a house in One hundred and seventy seventh street with Siscovitch and his wife...


                Just in case anyone still thinks that they are the same man.

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                • #9
                  Thanks Debs..nice work.

                  How did it come to be that this Siscovitch was thought to be Le Grand ? Any ideas ?
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                  • #10
                    Thanks, How
                    It was mentioned in the US press when LeGrand was convicted in 1891 that he could also be the US forger Ivan Siscovitch who also used the alias Charles Grandy amongst others. It was mentioned in the main LeGrand thread on this forum about 2 and a half years ago, the only thing the US reports were going on was the particular use of the name Charles Grandy.
                    Siscovitch used many other aliases, including Theodore Burnett, one of the men who made a complaint in 1886 about the appauling conditions in Sing Sing prison.

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                    • #11
                      Ah, it looks like I need to pay a little more attention to things.

                      Thanks Debra...and here's another question...

                      Maybe its just me, but it seems more than coincidental that two criminals would assume the same alias ( and also within the same period of time )....because Charles Grandy obviously isn't as common in the way "Joseph Jones" or "John Brown" are.

                      Just a thought dear.
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                      • #12
                        Maybe LeGrand had read or heard about the Grandy brothers and wanted to share in their reputation? He had spent a lot of time in prison around the type of people who would talk about these things.

                        Also, there is no mention anywhere, not even in the description of Christian Nelson in Scotland Yard investigates that LeGrand was missing any digits on his hand, like Siscovitch was.

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                        • #13
                          Hi Debs,

                          LeGrand was released from prison on ticket of leave in 1884, after which he was subject to 7 years police supervision. This takes us to 1891.

                          How is it, then, that in 1888 LeGrand could pull rank on Sergeant Stephen White with nothing but a business card and an addressed letter and also had access to Commissioner Sir Charles Warren at Scotland Yard?

                          This is a subject for the Berner Street thread, for I wholeheartedly believe that Stephen White's 4th October report is nonsense and that Matthew Packer was the person telling the truth about the night of the "double-event".

                          Regards,

                          Simon

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                          • #14
                            Funny you should say that, Simon, for I've always held Packer as the most important witness to the crimes pertaining to the imaginary character we know as Jack the Ripper.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                              Hi Debs,

                              LeGrand was released from prison on ticket of leave in 1884, after which he was subject to 7 years police supervision. This takes us to 1891.

                              How is it, then, that in 1888 LeGrand could pull rank on Sergeant Stephen White with nothing but a business card and an addressed letter and also had access to Commissioner Sir Charles Warren at Scotland Yard?

                              This is a subject for the Berner Street thread, for I wholeheartedly believe that Stephen White's 4th October report is nonsense and that Matthew Packer was the person telling the truth about the night of the "double-event".

                              Regards,

                              Simon

                              Hi Simon,
                              He failed to report after his 1884 release, that is why his details appeared in the police gazette.

                              He was a conman, that's what he did, fooled people, used aliases, not unlike several other LVP conmen and blackmailers of the time who pulled off even bigger scams.

                              So...basically, are you and AP saying that all the genuine coppers involved in the investigations were the liars and on a mission to cover up something? And that the proven fakes, conmen, liars and people who changed their stories more than I change my daughter's nappies, are the ones we should be believing?

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