Le Grand Convictions

[Debra Arif]

Tying Mary Jane Kelly to Le Grand, is that an objective or a possibility? I was just wondering because I heard Kelly being unidentified might offer a key to the case being solved.

I don't think it's the objective of anyone on this thread. Having an interest in, researching and discussing why someone was a contemporary suspect is not the same as believing they actually were responsible for any murders and engineering things towards that conclusion. It was Sgt Williams James who expressed an opinion that Grande was involved in the Whitechapel murders. He told the papers in 1892 and also voiced the opinion while he himself was imprisoned for the manslaughter of his sister in law (he shot her) in the early 1900's.

[Debra Arif]

Debra has Morgensterns marrying Falk/Valk who married Dupay/Depey from Holland. If there's a link to MJK with Le Grand, it could also be with Demay through the Morgensterns.

The Falk/Valks also used the surname Felix.
The Roman Catholic church of St Mary and Michael, Commercial Road show John Morgenstern marrying Miss A M Falk, daughter of Simon Falk (listed as Simon Felix, skin dresser in 1891), in 1874. Miss Falk's brother, Adrianus Falk, married Jeanette Kemmeling in the RC church and in 1882/3 we see the same couple also using the surname Felix when their son George is baptised at the same Catholic church. Interesting that John Morgenstern also used the surname Felix like his in-laws.

[Anna Morris]

Demay also has my attention as a possibility for the possible “French Lady”. I guess Allene Williams could also be her if she’s French. But she could be German. She said her real name was Ellen Max and Allene is more like the German Alena. French is Helene.

Does Demay have to be French. Le Grand was Danish?

Debra has Morgensterns marrying Falk/Valk who married Dupay/Depey from Holland. If there's a link to MJK with Le Grand, it could also be with Demay through the Morgensterns.

I have looked toward Belgium a number of times. We know Adrianus Morgenstern worked in Belgium at one time.

French names turn up all over the place. In fact it is easier to find women named Marie Jeanette in Holland than in other places.

[Anna Morris]

I don't know. It is just a wild idea I got when I found one of Mary Jane Kelly-Wilson's in-laws listed at an address near where Le Grand had lived. I tossed out that information for the interest of San Fran who is hot on the trail of MJK-W.

From my perspective, MJK the victim's story about a gay house in the West End and the French lady, needs to be whittled down to something useful. I doubt she was in a gay HOUSE, but more likely had an association with a French brothel set up. Le Grand and his girl friend Demay had an operation like this and Le Grand travelled to the continent from time to time.

Writers for years have put forth MJK as the key to solving the JtR case. She was the "last" victim, the most damaged, the youngest, the most mysterious, etc. I have backed away from that kind of thinking. We don't know who was MJK really but there is nothing to indicate that she was any kind of key to the series of JtR crimes. IMO, when police, vigilance and public pressure was severe after the Double Event, Mary was special because she had her own room.

Nevertheless it would be wonderful to know more about Mary Kelly. And I do have an idea that she knew the killer because she took him home, undressed for him probably at the end of her working day, so perhaps she planned to spend the rest of the night with him. To me that is more than a client she did not know previously. Unless he paid real good for the privileges. It could make sense that an overly dressed Mr. A. might have been worth all that but does it make sense that he stripped off all that finery or got his spats blood spattered while committing murder?

Information on this thread may connect us to new developments about Rosalie Ochse.

[R. J. Palmer]

My apologies for being an ignoramus when it comes to Charles Le Grand, but this is him in the 1891 census is it not?

An old post by Chris P., showing the Habitual Criminals Register for 1907, lists one of Le Grand's aliases as "Charles Colnette Grandy."

The bloke below from 1891 is listed as "Chas. C. Grandy" born Denmark.

The age is fully ten years younger than most estimates for Le Grand, but his backside is parked in Wormwood Scrubs, which is never a good sign.

Somewhat dubiously, his occupation is listed as a laborer. What are the odds?

(Maybe this is old news, but I'm not seeing it elsewhere. I stumbled across it accidently while chasing down Danish sailors).

[R. J. Palmer]

Here's the entry from 1907, showing 'Charles Colnette Grandy,' found by Chris P.

[Debra Arif]

Yes, that is him R.J. He was convicted and sentenced as Charles Colnette Grandy to five years penal servitude, later changed to two years imprisonment on a point of law in 1889.

The first post in this thread has a link to this particular Old Bailey trial as well as some others.

[Kattrup]

My apologies for being an ignoramus when it comes to Charles Le Grand, but this is him in the 1891 census is it not?

An old post by Chris P., showing the Habitual Criminals Register for 1907, lists one of Le Grand's aliases as "Charles Colnette Grandy."

The bloke below from 1891 is listed as "Chas. C. Grandy" born Denmark.

The age is fully ten years younger than most estimates for Le Grand, but his backside is parked in Wormwood Scrubs, which is never a good sign.

Somewhat dubiously, his occupation is listed as a laborer. What are the odds?

(Maybe this is old news, but I'm not seeing it elsewhere. I stumbled across it accidently while chasing down Danish sailors).

Nice find, Debra. Interesting that he?s listed as a naturalized British subject.
I believe he must have attempted to resist deportation ca. 1915 on those grounds, when I retire I shall go look through the various HO petitions in the NA

[Debra Arif]

I believe he must have attempted to resist deportation ca. 1915 on those grounds, when I retire I shall go look through the various HO petitions in the NA

Yes, I think you are right, Kattrup. As official naturalisation could be checked by authorities, (I imagine pretty easily?) I wonder if that is the reason Grande claimed he was born at sea in British waters (off the coast of Ireland as I recall?) after the Aliens Act.
Being born on a British ship in Foreign or territorial waters would qualify him as a natural born British citizen and get around him not having applied for, or been accepted for official naturalisation. I wonder if it is also the reason he took an English wife in 1907?. A belt and braces approach. However, his trousers were well and truly yanked down after the 1914 Aliens Act.

[Kattrup]

It?s your brilliant theory, Debra, and I agree with it. But since this census is from 1891, that?s a bit early to prepare anti-deportation arguments for legislation that would not be enacted until after 1900. Or what do you think?

As I recall, the claims you?ve found of Grande being British subject all dates after the introduction the Alens act 1905 or thereabouts? So this predates that considerably, I think.

[Debra Arif]

It?s your brilliant theory, Debra, and I agree with it. But since this census is from 1891, that?s a bit early to prepare anti-deportation arguments for legislation that would not be enacted until after 1900. Or what do you think?

As I recall, the claims you?ve found of Grande being British subject all dates after the introduction the Alens act 1905 or thereabouts? So this predates that considerably, I think.

That's a very good point, Kattrup, although I wonder if there was earlier legislation about the possibility of foreign criminals being deported that was continued in the later Alien's acts that may have put teh wind up him even then?
Back in 2007 Robert and myself (according to an old thread I just stumbled across ) mentioned looking at some of the online naturalisation records looking for Grande as a result of his claiming naturalisation in the 1891 census but I wrote that I found it a difficult task given the combination of his name and variant spellings of them all! It is something Tom was keen to find out, whether or not there was any truth in the 1891 census scribbling of being a B.S.
We know he was definitely one kind of B.S.

If you do decide to take on the challenge in retirement I hope you will come back and tell us how you get on

[Gary Barnett]

It?s your brilliant theory, Debra, and I agree with it. But since this census is from 1891, that?s a bit early to prepare anti-deportation arguments for legislation that would not be enacted until after 1900. Or what do you think?

As I recall, the claims you?ve found of Grande being British subject all dates after the introduction the Alens act 1905 or thereabouts? So this predates that considerably, I think.

Have you considered early retirement, Kattrup? I can thoroughly recommend it. ;-)

[Kattrup]

Have you considered early retirement, Kattrup? I can thoroughly recommend it. ;-)

I?ve often considered it, but find it hard to convince my wife and children to become homeless

[Gary Barnett]

I?ve often considered it, but find it hard to convince my wife and children to become homeless

You should remind them how hard you had it when you were a lad:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

[Howard Brown]