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Pizer at Crossingham's?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Plus she was ten years too old (from the PP we researchers tend to think is the right one and not the A to Z identificaion) and all sorts of things went against her..but I explained all this at the time.
    Yes, Debs. As I stated in the post, I was posting it due to interest in Palmer's Place. If it's not the same Palmer's Place, then so be it. But if it is, then I thought the piece might provide some color. And a Mary Connelly to boot!

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

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    • #47
      Was there indeed a Palmer's Place in St. George's?

      Yours truly,

      Tom Wescott

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
        Was there indeed a Palmer's Place in St. George's?

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott
        Yep, here it is. Not very clear. The church is St George in the East and it was right behind it. It might have been gone by 1888. I remember looking at this area years ago and there was some big redevelopments around the Dellow Street area.

        weller46b.jpg

        Rob

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        • #49
          Hi Rob

          The street name on your map is called Palmer's Folly as on the 1862 Stanford.
          Itsnotrocketsurgery

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          • #50
            William and Albert Crossingham – the brother Lodging House Keepers

            1841 Census
            High Street, Romford
            Joseph Crossingham, aged 40, a Wheelwright from Essex
            Elizabeth Crossingham, aged 35 from Essex
            William Crossingham, aged 15 from Essex
            Joseph Crossingham, aged 13 from Essex
            Charles Crossingham, aged 11 from Essex
            George Crossingham, aged 9 from Essex
            Sarah Crossingham, aged 7 from Essex
            Elizabeth Crossingham, aged 5 from Essex
            Ellen Crossingham, aged 3, from Essex
            Stephen Crossingham, aged 7 months from Essex

            Jul-Aug-Sep 1846 - Birth Index - Romford
            William Charles Crossingham

            10th August 1851 - Baptised – Great Dunmow
            Albert Crossingham – Parents William and Ann Crossingham

            1861 Census
            Queens Road, South Weald, Brentwood
            William Crossingham, aged 36, White Smith and Ball Hanger, born Havering
            Ann Crossingham. Wife, aged 31, born Herongate
            William Crossingham, son, aged 14, White Smith (apprentice), born Romford
            Arthur Crossingham, son, aged 11, Scholar, born Dunmow
            Joseph Crossingham, son, aged 7, Scholar, born Dunmow
            Emma Crossingham, daughter, aged 5, Scholar, born Brentwood
            Walter Crossingham, son, aged 2, born Brentwood
            George Crossingham, son, aged 1, born Brentwood
            Stephen Crossingham, brother. Aged 28, White Smith, born Romford
            Mercury Gardens, Romford
            Joseph Crossingham, aged 63, Wheelwright, born Romford
            Elizabeth Crossingham, aged 58, wife, born Romford
            George Crossingham, son, aged 31, Seaman, born Romford
            Albert Crossingham, nephew, aged 9, Scholar, born Romford (actually he was the grandson)

            September 1866 - Marriage – St Mary, Lambeth
            William Crossingham, a Baker from Princes Road, son of William Crossingham, Copper smith
            Mary Robinson, a widow, daughter of Thomas France, a Measure Maker

            1871 Census
            20 Flower and Dean Street, Spitalfields
            William Crossingham, aged 30, Hawker, born Dunmow
            Mary Crossingham, aged 37, wife, General Dealer, born Surrey
            Alice Crossingham, aged 14, daughter, needleworker, born Surrey
            Ann Crossingham, aged 4, daughter, born St Georges Southwark

            16th April 1878 - Marriage – Bromley St Leonard
            Albert Crossingham, a Baker from Bromley, son of William Crossingham, an Engineer
            Mary Jane Johnson, from Bromley, daughter of Joseph Johnson, a House Decorator

            Jul-Aug-Sep 1880 – Birth – West Ham
            Clara Emma S Crossingham to Albert Crossingham

            1881 Census
            2 Winchester Terrace, Stratford
            Albert Crossingham, aged 24, Baker, born Brentwood
            Mary J Crossingham, aged 27 wife, born Hammersmith
            Clara E Crossingham, aged 9 months, daughter, born Stratford
            16, 17, 18, 19 Dorset Street, Common Lodging House, Spitalfields
            William Crossingham, aged 36, Lodging House Keeper, born Essex
            Mary Crossingham, aged 45, Lodging House Keeper, born London
            Annie Crossingham, aged 14 Daughter, born Surrey

            13th May 1888 – Baptism - St Mary, Islington
            Albert William Charles Crossingham, son of Albert and Mary Jane Crossingham of 185 Holloway Road.
            Father's occupation - Lodging House Keeper.

            1891 Census
            160 St James Road, Lower Holloway
            Albert Crossingham, aged 39, Lodging House Keeper, born Brentwood
            Mary J Crossingham, aged 34, wife, born Hammersmith
            Clara ES Crossingham, aged 9, daughter, scholar, born Stratford
            Albert WC Crossingham, aged 3, son, born Holloway
            Clara Johnston, aged 33, sister, born Hammersmith

            17th August 1898 - Marriage
            Wiliam Crossingham
            Margaret Sullivan

            1901 Census
            13 Seymour Place, St Marylebone
            Albert Crossingham, aged 46, Engineeer, born Dunmow
            Mary J Crossingham, aged 45, wife, born Hammersmith
            Clara E Crossingham, aged 20, daughter, born Stratford
            Albert WC Crossingham, aged 13, son, born Holloway
            64 Western Road, Romford
            William Crossingham, aged 54, Lodging House Keeper, born Romford
            Margaret Crossingham, aged 37, wife, born Tower Hill

            28th February 1907 – death of William Crossingham, 20 Dorset Street, Spitalfields and St Margarets, Junction Street, Romford. Probate 27th April 1907 to Margaret Crossingham £7,521 3s 9d.

            7th March 1907
            Burial of William Crossingham - Romford Cemetery

            25th June 1907 – death of Margaret Crossingham, St Margaret’s Romford. Probate 13th August 1907, £11,190 0s 2d.

            1911 Census – 6 Great Barlow Street, St Marylebone
            Albert Crossingham, aged 58, Cab washer, born in Brentwood
            Mary Jane Crossingham, aged 57, born in Hammersmith

            Jan-Feb-Mar 1917 - Death
            Albert Crossingham, aged 65 in Richmond, Surrey

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            • #51
              Hi Rob, thanks. I guess Palmer's Folly is the place then.

              Hi Ed, thanks for that. Do you think Albert's wife's maiden name was Johnson or Johnston? If Johnston, I wonder if she had a brother named Edward?

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • #52
                Thanks for posting those Edward.
                I originally thought they were brothers but broke off mid research and then couldn't remember what I'd looked at when I came back to it so went with the safer 'cousins' documented in the family tree.

                I'm really surprised that in all this time and considering all the scrutiny he's had recently that no one has ever noticed that Pizer claimed to have been staying at Crossingham's , Holloway Rd.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                  Hi Rob, thanks. I guess Palmer's Folly is the place then.
                  I told you that too. I sent you the 1881 census with the Mary Connelly from the news snip you're citing living there at #12.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Thanks Edward....for the list you provided earlier....very decent of you and good work, too.
                    To Join JTR Forums :
                    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Stephen Thomas View Post
                      Hi Rob

                      The street name on your map is called Palmer's Folly as on the 1862 Stanford.
                      Thanks Stephen, my eye sight must be going. However I was right in a roundabout sort of way as on the 1873 O.S. Map it is called Palmers Place.
                      I looked at this area years ago and I am buggered if I can remember why, the names are setting of alarm bells in my head.

                      Good to see you this evening, sorry I could n't stay and chat, been up since 6:30

                      St George in the East Church 1873.jpg

                      Rob

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        Thanks for posting those Edward.
                        I originally thought they were brothers but broke off mid research and then couldn't remember what I'd looked at when I came back to it so went with the safer 'cousins' documented in the family tree.

                        I'm really surprised that in all this time and considering all the scrutiny he's had recently that no one has ever noticed that Pizer claimed to have been staying at Crossingham's , Holloway Rd.
                        I'm not surprised, Debs. If not for the Crossman's listings I'm sure I would have picked up on it. But when I saw a report that said Crossingham's, I thought it had been a press error. And Begg, Simon and myself aren't the strongest when it comes to the 'diggin' up bones' side of research that you, Ed, and others are so good at. But I think all these characters need looked at closer. Let's also not forget about Daniel Sullivan!

                        Yours truly,

                        Tom Wescott

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                          I'm not surprised, Debs. If not for the Crossman's listings I'm sure I would have picked up on it. But when I saw a report that said Crossingham's, I thought it had been a press error. And Begg, Simon and myself aren't the strongest when it comes to the 'diggin' up bones' side of research that you, Ed, and others are so good at. But I think all these characters need looked at closer. Let's also not forget about Daniel Sullivan!

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott
                          But do you think this is good, new evidence to resonably suggest that Pizer did regularly use lodging houses run by the Crossingham brothers and that Timothy Donovan was describing Pizer when he claimed he had thrown Leather Apron out of the lodging house the year before for assaulting a woman?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            blacklist

                            Hello Debs. If it were Piser who was ejected by Donovan, would it not be reasonable to assume that he would be denied later admittance to one of their lodginghouses?

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Lynn Cates View Post
                              Hello Debs. If it were Piser who was ejected by Donovan, would it not be reasonable to assume that he would be denied later admittance to one of their lodginghouses?

                              Cheers.
                              LC
                              Yes it is possible that would happen, Lynn. But we appear to have accumulated so many different people telling lies and involved in conspiracies around the Leather Apron events at the moment that it's difficult to tell who thinks what exactly. That's why I was asking Tom his opinion of this and how it might fit in with his 'Lords of spitalfields' theory.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Human Condition

                                Hi Lynn

                                Unless he were actually breaking the place up or deterring trade I don't think it'd happen...I think they'd just keep on taking the fourpences and turn a blind eye.

                                Bullying has always taken place in all levels of society, and probably always will.

                                All the best

                                Dave

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