Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Does "Sexually Insane" Mean Homosexual?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Hi Rob,
    You are absolutely correct that Macnaghten did not call Druitt a "sexual maniac" in either version of the memorandum in which Druitt iscited by name. But in Days of My Years Macnaghten wrote: "There can be no doubt that in the room at Miller's Court the madman found ample scope for the opportunities he had all along been seeking, and the probability is that, after his awful glut on this occasion, his brain gave way altogether and he committed suicide; otherwise the murders would not have ceased. The man, of course, was a sexual maniac, but such madness takes Protean forms, as will be shown later on in other cases."

    Macnaghten either had Druitt in mind when he wrote this or he was thinking of somebody else. Since there is no real reason to suppose that he meant somebody else, and since he elsewhere said that Druitt was sexually insane and here says the murderer was a "sexual maniac", and since he thought that Druitt was the murderer, and since he later says that the murderer committed suicide in the Thames and Druitt committed suicide in the Thames, I'd say it is reasonable to suppose that he had Druitt in mind and was saying that Druitt was a "sexual maniac".

    And what Macnaghten meant by "sexual maniac" is someone who killed because he liked it, a motive which he clearly states ordinary people did not understand: "Very few people, except barristers, doctors, and police officers, realise that such a thing as sexual mania exists, and, in a murder case similar to the two mentioned above, it is a most difficult task for prosecuting counsel to make a jury fully understand that it supplies and accounts for the complete absence of any other motive for the crime."

    So, I suggest that Macnaghten was not attributing to Druitt any aberrant behavior or perceived aberrant behavior, such as homosexuality, but meant only that he lacked the conventional motives of other criminals and murderers.

    Comment


    • #17
      Hi Paul,

      You may well be right. But the other possible interpretation is that Druitt believed that the Ripper was a sexual maniac, AND knew (from his family perhaps) that Druitt exhibited some type of behavior that would fit the Victorian definition of sexual insanity. And that as a result of this, Macnaghten considered this behavior as additional proof of Druitt's guilt (in addition to the other facts he lists as facts supporting Druitt's guilt). I have no idea what that behavior was, but it might have been homosexuality, erotomania, masturbation, fetishism, sexual abuse of youngsters, what have you. That has always been my interpretation of that particular comment anyway.

      Cheers.
      Rob

      Comment


      • #18
        Contemporary authors such as Krafft-Ebing and most certainly Edward Mann, suggests just what Rob has pointed out.. a perverse sexual behavior that could lead to some type of morbid indulgence...'satyriasis'... as Dr. Bond, via Krafft-Ebing put it.

        Mann, in his 1893 book, Medical Jurisprudence and Insanity, went so far as to include homosexuality as sexual insanity while Krafft-Ebing backed off of that to suggest that ...' Sexual feeling may be intensified to lust'. Whether Macnaghten meant this is anyone's guess, but he certainly thought he had obtained information that Druitt displayed some perceived sexual perversion that could have led to a more morbid indulgence believed to be displayed in some of the Whitechapel murders. In other words, 'sexual insanity' or 'mania' could lead to murder involving mutilation and extraction of sexual organs.

        As Phil stated, Macnaghten was no expert in human psychology and we don't know if he consulted Bond or some other medico for advice or simply relied upon his own notions as to what was deviant behavior in his mind. Although not related to Druitt, Littlechild's letter to Sims is still very telling in that regard.
        Best Wishes,
        Cris Malone
        ______________________________________________
        "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

        Comment


        • #19
          Hello Cris,

          To my mind, the ONLY thing that might possibly just, perhaps, support some of Mac's diagnosis of Druitt's mental state is the date of the MM.. 1894.

          Now this is pure supposition.. did MM read or have access to Edward Mann's book from 1893? Or did he consult Bond and through him, the views of Kraft-Ebbing..or vica-versa.

          It would explain Mac having some sort of knowledgable comment on sexual insanity.. as he was clearly very underqualified to label anyone with such a disorder of his own accord.

          It's all supposition of course.. but I must say that it doesn't add anywhere near enough weight to the words serial murderer attached to Druitt. Far far too tenuous, imho.

          One very important thing is often overlooked with MacNaghten. He stated that he had destroyed all his papers on the case.. when he clearly did not.

          So how much of what he actually stated CAN be taken as gospel truth?

          I'm sorry, but a high ranking policemen playing at the defining of precise human psychological conditions related to sexual perversion and lust, and the effect of this upon the mind in order to define those effects as a qualification for being a multi-murdering serial killer that destroys female bodies...really isn't realistic.

          To my mind, that's comparable with me stating that a certain Norwegian mass murderer called Brevik is a "nutter".. when I have no basis for making that comment at all. He may well be perfectly sane.. (and it looks like he may be 100% in total control of all of his thoughts, and links it to his logic, however differing to that logic we others think is logical or not)

          I would not base any label on any person that comes from an unqualified non mental and sexual expert as reliable.

          From private info?... heresay I call it.

          kindly

          Phil
          from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Rob House
            Hi Paul,

            You may well be right. But the other possible interpretation is that Druitt believed that the Ripper was a sexual maniac, AND knew (from his family perhaps) that Druitt exhibited some type of behavior that would fit the Victorian definition of sexual insanity. And that as a result of this, Macnaghten considered this behavior as additional proof of Druitt's guilt (in addition to the other facts he lists as facts supporting Druitt's guilt). I have no idea what that behavior was, but it might have been homosexuality, erotomania, masturbation, fetishism, sexual abuse of youngsters, what have you. That has always been my interpretation of that particular comment anyway.

            Cheers.
            Rob
            Of course Macnaghten (who I take it you mean) may have believed the Ripper was a sexual maniac and Druitt may have exhibited characteristics that fitted that expectation. But, as I keep on saying, Macnaghten defined, at least in a general sense, what he meant by "sexual maniac", and it doesn't appear to embrace those activities you mention.

            We can deduce from other writings that the sort of aberrant behavior or perceived aberrant behavior you mention was believed to contribute to or otherwise cause insanity, including becoming a "sexual maniac", and Macnaghten seems to be addressing this in his remarks, but clearly does not define any specific one as associated with being a "sexual maniac".

            Let's get back to the original question, which was whether "sexual maniac" as applied by Macnaghten meant homosexual. The answer to that question is that it doesn't, not at least as far as the definition provided by Macnaghten goes. A "sexual maniac" was someone who killed for pleasure and had no conventional motive that the public expected at that time.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cris Malone
              Contemporary authors such as Krafft-Ebing and most certainly Edward Mann, suggests just what Rob has pointed out.. a perverse sexual behavior that could lead to some type of morbid indulgence...'satyriasis'... as Dr. Bond, via Krafft-Ebing put it.

              Mann, in his 1893 book, Medical Jurisprudence and Insanity, went so far as to include homosexuality as sexual insanity while Krafft-Ebing backed off of that to suggest that ...' Sexual feeling may be intensified to lust'. Whether Macnaghten meant this is anyone's guess, but he certainly thought he had obtained information that Druitt displayed some perceived sexual perversion that could have led to a more morbid indulgence believed to be displayed in some of the Whitechapel murders. In other words, 'sexual insanity' or 'mania' could lead to murder involving mutilation and extraction of sexual organs.

              As Phil stated, Macnaghten was no expert in human psychology and we don't know if he consulted Bond or some other medico for advice or simply relied upon his own notions as to what was deviant behavior in his mind. Although not related to Druitt, Littlechild's letter to Sims is still very telling in that regard.
              Chris,
              I haven't said that perverse sexual behavior couldn't lead to murder and mutilation, and neither did Macnaghten, who specifically stated: "Students of history, however, are aware that an excessive indulgence in vice leads, in certain cases, to a craving for blood." He then cites the Emperor Nero and Eastern potentates "who loved to see slaves slaughtered or wild beasts tearing each other to pieces" as examples of people with a lust for blood.

              Again, the question was whether or not "sexual maniac" meant homosexual, and the answer is that, according to Macnaghten's own definition of what he meant, it didn't. That doesn't mean that Druitt wasn't homosexual, a child molester, or anything else one cares to imagine.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Phil Carter
                I'm sorry, but a high ranking policemen playing at the defining of precise human psychological conditions related to sexual perversion and lust, and the effect of this upon the mind in order to define those effects as a qualification for being a multi-murdering serial killer that destroys female bodies...really isn't realistic.
                Is that what Macnaghten was doing or is it what you perceive him as doing or want him to be doing so that you can challenge his credibility and/or Druitt's stature as a suspect?

                What Macnaghten was doing or trying to do was to explain to his general readers that some murderers don't have conventional motives, which in turn makes them difficult to detect and even more difficult to convict. They kill because killing gives them pleasure, a concept which Macnaghten clearly believed the majority of people, his readers among them, didn't understand. This is what he says very clearly in The Days of My Years, and the only place he may venture into psychology is when he attributes this blood lust to indulgence in "vices" which he does not specify.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hi all

                  It might be useful to post here what I wrote in a recent blog posting on early American commentators on the case over on Casebook:

                  Dr. Howard Atwood Kelly (1858–1943), a pioneer obstetrician and gynecologist, and one of the “Four Doctors” in a portrait by John Singer Sargent of the founding physicians of Johns Hopkins Hospital, wrote to the Medical News in a letter published in the issue of 13 October 1888. Kelly, at the time of the murders, an Associate Professor of Obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, put the murders down to sexual perversion. Dr. Kelly wrote:

                  “The great liability to error on the part of the officers of the law, in the investigation of such cases as the present, lies in the fact that they are misled in their effort to appreciate the motive, and invariably attribute it to an ordinary criminal instinct. Such, however, is not the case, and it is as impossible for a sound healthy man to conceive the nature of the impulse which impels the paederest, or other sexual pervert, as it would be to conceive a new color.”

                  After giving a list of examples of sexual perversities throughout history, Dr. Kelly wrote:

                  “A desire to murder without any apparent motive, a desire which practises its cruelties invariably upon women, and that of a certain class; added to this the mutilation of the genitals of the corpse, and, in at least on instance, the peculiar practice of slitting open the belly and drawing out the entrails.”

                  I am assuming that Dr. Kelly had read the works of Krafft-Ebing.

                  Best regards

                  Chris
                  Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                  https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                  Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                  Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Just spotted this thread after already posting on the other Druitt thread.

                    As has already been said, the bottom line is that we just don't know what was being alluded to. It's ridiculous to try and pick into the mind Macnaghten as his other thoughts were so outlandish and seemingly out of the blue, with little or no evidence to back them up, that we would be excelling ourselves to guess correctly.

                    I've already stated my views that it is an allusion to homosexuality and perhaps hatred of women, especially prostitutes, as a result of that, but as Phil Carter stated early on in this thread, be there any truth in any of that at all - and there's no proof of it - it still does not make Druitt the killer. Indeed, one would wonder why a homosexual young man who had it all - career, money, sport - would be interested in killing middle-aged prostitutes in that manner and eventually quite literally driving himself to the drink over it.

                    Cheers,
                    Adam.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Adam,
                      Surely the bottom line is that we do know what Managhten is alluding to because Macnaghten couldn't tell us more clearly and straightforwardly what he meant, and like it or not it wasn't homosexuality. As said, Macnaghten attributed sexual mania to an overindulgence in unspecified vices, which could have included homosexuality, but Macnaghten doesn’t say it was or give the slightest reason for assuming that it was.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        There is a sort of aberration mentioned in My Secret Life" by Walter, in that he mentions a desire to have sex with the lowest, roughest looking women on the street

                        Perhaps Druitt utilising such prostitutes was seen as a type of satyriasis and sexual insanity

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Ah ha

                          Jack the Ripper was a sexual maniac.

                          Druitt was 'sexually insane'.

                          Therefore Druitt was Jack the Ripper.

                          Is that what you think MacNaghton believed, Paul?

                          I doubt that he could be that stupid.
                          Itsnotrocketsurgery

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Phil Carter
                            Hello Cris,

                            To my mind, that's comparable with me stating that a certain Norwegian mass murderer called Brevik is a "nutter".. when I have no basis for making that comment at all. He may well be perfectly sane.. (and it looks like he may be 100% in total control of all of his thoughts, and links it to his logic, however differing to that logic we others think is logical or not)

                            l
                            If you could provide an 'expert' to make such a statement you might have a point.

                            However knowledge on insanity is largely the observation of case studies. The chemical interactions in the brain that cause madness are still a grey area, as is the precise working of the human brain.

                            Actually as McNaughten is a professional police officer with an obvious interest in such matters I think it fair to conclude that he probably had a better idea of definitions and terminology than the average member of the victorian public.

                            Quite what is meant by 'nutter' is a wholely seperate debate (one might argue that the entire member of the 'opposite sex' fits into that catigory)

                            However we can say that Brevik is a Spree killer as fact. And it is therefore reasonable to draw comparisions of 'case behaviour' to other spree killings.

                            The only observation I have made is that 'in some ways the JtR murders might be more like a mordern Spree killing than a modern serial killing'.

                            What you point out is that there is no obvious madness in Brevik, so the possibility exists that no obvious outward madness existed in JtR. Its simply a possibility draw from case study.

                            Yours Jeff

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Stephen Thomas
                              Ah ha

                              Jack the Ripper was a sexual maniac.

                              Druitt was 'sexually insane'.

                              Therefore Druitt was Jack the Ripper.

                              Is that what you think MacNaghton believed, Paul?

                              I doubt that he could be that stupid.
                              Were going in circles but we dont know why McNaughten believed Druit was the Ripper. But Druit is a top suspect because he states clearly he beleives that he was.

                              Paul has simply made the case that McNaughten probably wasnt refering to Druit as a homosexual or he would have been clearer in his wording. He wasnt...

                              But without knowing the 'private info', we dont know.

                              However if you want to pin JtR on Druit I think you require a reason for Druit centering himself on the corner of Brick lane and Osbourne Street...all the other commuting serial killers had a reason, largely clubs with the correct prey type.

                              Yours Jeff

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Stephen Thomas
                                Ah ha

                                Jack the Ripper was a sexual maniac.

                                Druitt was 'sexually insane'.

                                Therefore Druitt was Jack the Ripper.

                                Is that what you think MacNaghton believed, Paul?

                                I doubt that he could be that stupid.
                                No, I don't think that and I, too, doubt that Macnaghten would think it.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X
                                👍