Originally posted by Simon Wood
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Hi RJ,
Too much Catullus at Eton, and not enough Basic English Reader?
Montague John Druitt, 31 years of age. [Echo 3rd January 1889].
The deceased was his brother, who was 31 last birthday. [Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette, 5th January 1889].
. . . respecting the death of Montague John Druitt, 31 years of age. [Southern Guardian, 5th January 1889].
. . . respecting the death of Montague John Druitt, 31 years of age, who was found drowned in the Thames. [Hampshire Advertiser, 5th January 1889].
. . . on the body of Montague John Druitt, aged 31. [Richmond and Twickenham Times, 5th January 1889].
Stay well, my friend.
Simon
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Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
I'll deal with your points eventually but let me just take up this one.
Macnaghten dates the hanging to the 'end of 1899.' In reality, Massett was condemned to death at the end of 1899 but was hanged two weeks later. In the introduction, Macnaghten states that he is working from memory and he is writing in 1914.
If you feel justified in calling a nine day error (or even a two-hour error regarding a taxi-ride) a "lie" than I dare say you will find a number of "lies" in his book.
Yes, I did notice a number of discrepancies when I did my own study, but none so bad that I would feel justified in calling him a "serial liar."
It doesn't strike you as a little harsh?
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Originally posted by Scott Nelson View PostHere is a newspaper account of Macnaghten from his obituary-Reynolds News, May 15, 1921:
"Sir Melville came across a poor woman of Whitechapel who told him a story that seemed to fully collaborate a theory that he had formed while sitting in a public house in the Commercial Road. A very nicely-spoken, quiet-looking elderly man sat next to her. Conversation naturally turned upon the “Ripper” horror, and the stranger shaking his head softly, said with a pious air: “Truly in the midst of life we are in death.” He was carrying a small black bag. This he opened and produced a tract. The cover bore the words “Prepare to meet thy God.” This he presented to the woman. The tract passed into the possession of Sir Melville, and he came to the conclusion that the “Ripper” was a religious maniac with homicidal tendencies developed by a certain disease…Finally, Sir Melville narrowed down his search to a point where he was morally certain that he knew the man…Then suddenly he solved the difficulty himself. He committed suicide. A body was found in the Thames, and from certain evidence Sir Melville was able to convince the authorities that this was the man who had for so long terrorized the community. A few months later [June 1889] he was made Chief Constable."
-Reynolds News, May 15, 1921
This suggests Druitt was a suspicious suicide but wasn't considered a serious Ripper suspect until later.
I could say that it is not flattering for Macnaghten as the head of the Met, but I am not sure that I really can voice that much. It hinges on the type of thinking that ruled the day in police circles, and much speaks for how it was terra firma for them to typify criminals; criminal anthropology and all that. And we act according to the "science" of the day.
In any case, if Reynolds News were on the money, then we may add another reason to grade down Druitt in importance."In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.
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Originally posted by Phil Kellingley View Post
Not when you consider that Masset's case was very much a cause celebre in 1900 - simply because she was the first woman hanged in the 20th century. It is unreasonable to pass off all the errors in his book as 'fallible memory' when many of them are simply there to illustrate MacN's 'excellence'. I don't believe that someone in his position would not have had records of his past that he could refer to when writing the book. In regard to the taxi - it's part of a section in which MacN appears to be pretty much the man who is in charge and who turns up first. He wasn't and he didn't. The general point being that if his book contains many such statements and is designed to push himself forward the same is almost certainly true of the memorandum. It is, as we know, full of error but it is the only place that Druitt is mentioned. I would point out, additionally, that MacN describes a number of wrongdoers in his book as 'sexually insane' for no proveable reason - just as he does with Druitt."In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.
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Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
I think it reads as though Macnaghten investigated the case as a private citizen and had just identified Druitt when he committed suicide (I think that part echoes one of Sims's articles). In fact it seems to read as though Macnaghten investigated the case "while sitting in a public house in the Commercial Road", but surely that can't be right!
Public attention has been attracted in the case of the Salamanca-place sensation by the fact that some portions of the remains had been boiled and roasted. This gave an extra gruesomeness to the ordinary
'Dead Body Found"
announcement which may be seen outside almost every police-station in the metropolis all the year round. If the authorities thought it worth while to spend money and time, they might eventually get at the identity of the woman by the same process of exhaustion which enabled them at last to know the real name and address of Jack the Ripper.
In that case they had reduced the only possible Jacks to seven, then by a further exhaustive inquiry to three, and were about to fit these three people's movements in with the dates of the various murders when the one and only genuine Jack saved further trouble by being found drowned in the Thames, into which he had flung himself, a raving lunatic, after the last and most appalling mutilation of the whole series.
But prior to this discovery the name of the man found drowned was bracketed with two others as
A Possible Jack
and the police were in search of him alive when they found him dead. In the case of this chopped-up and semi-cooked woman, the best clue to the murderer might be the establishment of the victim's identity.
Obviously it's a garbled version of the three suspects in the Macnaghten memorandum. I wonder what the seven suspects referred to. Could Macnaghten have shown Sims a list of seven as well, or told him about one?
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Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
This is the Sims piece I was thinking of, from 13 July 1902, which refers to the search having been narrowed (albeit to three men rather than one) by the time of Druitt's suicide:
Public attention has been attracted in the case of the Salamanca-place sensation by the fact that some portions of the remains had been boiled and roasted. This gave an extra gruesomeness to the ordinary
'Dead Body Found"
announcement which may be seen outside almost every police-station in the metropolis all the year round. If the authorities thought it worth while to spend money and time, they might eventually get at the identity of the woman by the same process of exhaustion which enabled them at last to know the real name and address of Jack the Ripper.
In that case they had reduced the only possible Jacks to seven, then by a further exhaustive inquiry to three, and were about to fit these three people's movements in with the dates of the various murders when the one and only genuine Jack saved further trouble by being found drowned in the Thames, into which he had flung himself, a raving lunatic, after the last and most appalling mutilation of the whole series.
But prior to this discovery the name of the man found drowned was bracketed with two others as
A Possible Jack
and the police were in search of him alive when they found him dead. In the case of this chopped-up and semi-cooked woman, the best clue to the murderer might be the establishment of the victim's identity.
Obviously it's a garbled version of the three suspects in the Macnaghten memorandum. I wonder what the seven suspects referred to. Could Macnaghten have shown Sims a list of seven as well, or told him about one?"In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.
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Originally posted by Christer Holmgren View Post
It very much sounds like they considered Druitts suicide a confession. Not a word about confirming it in any way. Such further "trouble" was something they were "saved" from by the suicide.
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Originally posted by Phil Kellingley View PostIn order ot address the diatribe of Michael Banks I'm simply quoting his posting and putting my observations within that post.
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iginally posted by Phil Kellingley View Post
I know I'm late to this party and, firstly, I'd like to say that I think Joanna's find is significant. The same cannot be said for some of the comments...
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Roger has dealt with your ‘judgment’ that trivial errors of memory should be labelled as lies. I wonder if you’re consistent in that you apply this approach in all aspects of life or is it just for Macnaughten? Something tells me the latter. It’s ludicrous to suggest that Macnaughten should lie over such trivialities. I mean….a nine day error over something that happened 15 years before. Even the suggestion beggars belief.Regards
Michael🔎
" When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "
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Originally posted by Phil Kellingley View Post
My approach is simple. Not one fact has EVER emerged to place Druitt as a suspect. That MacNaghten named him as "the most likely" of three indicates nothing. Nobody has any idea where his information came from or even if it was genuine information. Unless you can come up with a fact that ties him in. I can wait.
Why does that very mild statement of a personal opinion annoy you so much? It’s not even as if I’ve tried promoting him or defending him tooth and nail on here. All that I’ve said is that Joanna’s excellent find in no way eliminates Druitt. Some feel that it reduces his likelihood further and that’s absolutely fine personally but I don’t. This again is simply my own opinion, posted on a Forum discussing this topic.
You are the one getting angry.Regards
Michael🔎
" When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "
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Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
I hasten to add that I don't believe anything like that actually happened in 1888. I doubt the police suspected Druitt before his suicide, and I'm sceptical that they suspected Aaron Kozminski as early as 1888."In these matters it is the little things that tell the tales" - Coroner Wynne Baxter during the Nichols inquest.
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