Proof of Innocence?

[Jurriaan Maessen]

Interesting thread, especially the contributions by Gary Barnett: always on point.
To echo Howard Brown: bump up- although I hope some of the generalities by people with an apparent vested interest into the suspect candidacy of Druitt (or a vested interest in their own particular candidate at the expense of Druitt), may be dispensed with within the context of this particular investigation. Same applies to some of the more eccentric profiling expeditions into what serial killers would or would not do. Just research, please, as well as reasoned speculation.

Carry on.

[Christer Holmgren]

Ridiculous.

Could you enlighten us as to the basis of your research on the habits of countryside holidaymakers who might have some kind of appointment during that period?

Or is this another invention (like ‘the gap?’)

Do you really think that vacationers are likely to spend 50 per cent or more of their vacations returning to their homes and works? Because that is what it takes to make it as likely that Druitt went to London on the 30th as it is that he did not. Its not ridiculous, it is simple mathematics.

[Christer Holmgren]

Invention 1, I think you mean. There’s no evidence that Druitt was gay.

You should read me more carefully. I have always taken great care to point out that it is my strong belief, not a proven thing. But to little avail, it seems.

By the way, I’ m glad you are answering my posts again, regardless of what you wrote yesterday. We should - both of us - be able to debate soundly.

[Edward Stow]

RJ Palmer
Did Druitt come go to Bournemouth for the night from London… or Wimborne? Do you know?
Oh I see Christer also spotted that one.
By the way in Michaelmas Term (I shudder to use that expression) half term is usually the last week of October… which is when …

And its about half a mile from the Rec to the Corn Exchange – not six miles – unless you took the scenic route

If the band had previously marched to the Rec at 7pm and the local volunteers engaged in manoeuvers at 7pm – then that suggests that 7pm was the accepted time for the Rec to be clear of cricket. Which implies the matches were always scheduled to end at some time not long before 7pm each Thursday. That time being the latest time a match could go on to. Obviously a very low scoring match would end earlier. If the matches were scheduled to end at say 6pm, then surely the band or volunteers would turn up at say 6.30pm. Isn’t that the obvious logic?

Mrs Brown
Actually you have a point. Had it been ‘discovered’ that Montague had traversed up to the big smoke to hook up with a chum – at say – Wilson’s place in Chiswick for example, then it wouldn’t be too surprising.
It is fair to presume that he was familiar with that establishment and had engaged in such activities before. But rushing off on a non-promise of finding a ‘rough sleeper’ at the far eastern reaches of Whitechapel, an area with which we can only presume he was unfamiliar? That is a somewhat different proposition.

… and the evidence supporting the suggestion that Druitt was Gay has been listed countless times so I am more than a little bemused at repeated claims that there is no evidence to support the suggestion that he was Gay. On the other hand there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Druitt wasn’t Gay! Not a shred!

[Michael Banks]

not Druitt. Exception 4.

Many serial killers come from broken homes and troubled backgrounds, but Druitt seems to have had a very good childhood. Exception 5.

Firstly, how many is ‘many?’

Secondly, how do you know that Druitt wasn’t abused as a child just because it wasn’t mentioned? Victorians were hardly known for their openness about these things.

So you’ve made 5 points, 3 of which are made simply to try and discredit. On it goes. Why the need?

[Michael Banks]

I

Most vacationers who absent themselves from the hustle and bustle of the city, opting for the countryside, stay in the countryside until it is time to go back. But not Druitt. Exception 4.

Ridiculous.

Could you enlighten us as to the basis of your research on the habits of countryside holidaymakers who might have some kind of appointment during that period?

Or is this another invention (like ‘the gap?’)

[Michael Banks]

I think that it is fair to speak of Druitt as a truly "exceptional" suspect.

He seems to have been homosexual, by the looks of things - but he opted for female victims. Exception 1.

Invention 1, I think you mean. There’s no evidence that Druitt was gay.

[Gary Barnett]

I'm not sure I follow. What am I missing?

The town band and other festivities were at the Corn Exchange, about .6 miles away from the Recreation Grounds. Wouldn't that mean the match would be expected to finish up earlier, not later, so people could have a meal and make their way across town?

Rather pathetically, my Druitt obsession has left me studying the local Blandford political scene for the past few days.

Ed Stowe's account of the Blandford band performing on Thursday nights on the Recreation Ground (Post 297) dates to May 1888.

But these musical events appear to have been suspended; a local correspondent complains about it on June 23rd. Apparently, the crowd dancing after 8 pm was frowned upon.




With the cricket ground now free on Thursday evenings in June, there is an account of the cricket pitch used for military maneuvers, which might suggest they knew the match would have been long over. There was definitely a cricket game played on the grounds this same day.

I saw an account of Adjutant Law marching his men to the field at 7 pm on another night.

The arrival of the band was said to have augmented the cricket crowd.

How big was the ground? There was a sloping area which was used for football matches. I doubt that was also the cricket pitch. Perhaps the army manoeuvres were conducted in a different part of the ground.

[Christer Holmgren]

I think that it is fair to speak of Druitt as a truly "exceptional" suspect.

He seems to have been homosexual, by the looks of things - but he opted for female victims. Exception 1.

Sexual serial killers are very unlikely to kill themselves. Nevertheless, sexual serial killer candidate Monty did. Exception 2.

The by far commonest serial killer is of the marauder type, not the commuter type. But serialist M J Druitt was a commuter. On the Blandford-Bournemouth-London train when killing Nichols. Exception 3.

Most vacationers who absent themselves from the hustle and bustle of the city, opting for the countryside, stay in the countryside until it is time to go back. But not Druitt. Exception 4.

Many serial killers come from broken homes and troubled backgrounds, but Druitt seems to have had a very good childhood. Exception 5.

I have asked it before: Is there any matter where Druitt adhers to the serial killers rule, or is he all about exceptions?

[Christer Holmgren]

I find this highly unlikely.

The summer holiday is gone and the Blackheath school is back in session. He doesn't get another leisurely holiday down in Dorset, Christer. He needs to watch the boys at night for Mr. Valentine.

No; this October trip is not a pleasure cruise. Recall that in November Druitt will appeal the election case that his brother and cousin are handling down south. He needs to be 'instructed.' It is highly likely that he went down to Bournemouth for this reason, but would be expected to be back in London to resume his duties.

Only one night is mentioned by W.H. Druitt. This is what the pilots call a "touch and go." MJD is picking up papers and discussing the upcoming legal case with his brother and cousin, but he needs to hurry back to Blackheath.

Again, why is this fantastical, other than you want it to be? I'm not even arguing that he is the murderer. There is an express train between London and Bournemouth that only takes 2.5 hours, but more research is needed.

R J, you have yourself admitted that you don´t find it likely that Druitt was the killer, but you are willing to stick up for him for reasons of not wanting a possibility to be thrown under the bus. So I don´t really worry too much about what you think is unlikely since you are a champion of the unlikely yourself!

Yes, school was in session in October, but that is no guarantee that Druitt could not have had a day or two off, and there were weekends in existance too. So unlikely? Yes, Impossible? No. And that is how you want it yourself on related issues, remember!

You formerly tried to make believe that I would classify it as "bizarre" if Druitt went to London. Now, you have changed "bizarre" for "fantastic". Neither expression is mine, they are both yours. And neither expression belongs here.

It is a fact that the article you claimed was proof of how Druitt did a quick return trip to Dorset actually proves no such thing. Fair is fair, and if you can point to how it is possible that Druitt went to London on the 30:th, then I can point to how it is equally possible that he did not make a one day trip to Dorset in October.

That does not mean that I necessarily believe that he did stay more nights in Dorset on the occasion; I think the facts speak for a one night trip more than they do for a multi night ditto.

And I am sure you like that reasoning.

But you are not equally fond of how I say that it is not very likely that Druitt travelled to London on the 30th, although that conclusion is built on the exact same logical thinking.

But there you are.

[R. J. Palmer]

You will probably say that I am arguing for arguments sake again, but the quote does actually not say that he went to Bournemouth for a day only. It says that he "stayed with witness at Bournemouth for a night". What it does not say is where he stayed the adjoining nights. There is nothing to preclude that he stayed somewhere else in Bournemouth on those days. Or he could have been travelling through Bournemouth on his way to some other meeting.

I find this highly unlikely.

The summer holiday is gone and the Blackheath school is back in session. He doesn't get another leisurely holiday down in Dorset, Christer. He needs to watch the boys at night for Mr. Valentine.

No; this October trip is not a pleasure cruise. Recall that in November Druitt will appeal the election case that his brother and cousin are handling down south. He needs to be 'instructed.' It is highly likely that he went down to Bournemouth for this reason, but would be expected to be back in London to resume his duties.

Only one night is mentioned by W.H. Druitt. This is what the pilots call a "touch and go." MJD is picking up papers and discussing the upcoming legal case with his brother and cousin, but he needs to hurry back to Blackheath.

Again, why is this fantastical, other than you want it to be? I'm not even arguing that he is the murderer. There is an express train between London and Bournemouth that only takes 2.5 hours, but more research is needed.

[Tammy Green]

My interest in Druitt is merely to uncover any truth about him. And you seem unable to accept that the memorandum is full of misinformation. Where MacN got the name of Druitt from is pretty much immaterial. What is material is that he stated it with 'facts' he ascribed which were not true. That others followed his lead and continued to write 'doctor' indicates they were following his lead. It seems blatantly obvious that if you accuse someone and get the basic facts about them wrong (i.e. age and profession) then anything else you write about them must be treated as equally erroneous. MacN also employs his oft-repeated 'sexually insane' slur but fails to provide an iota of evidence. And there's the rub. MacN was in his post when that memo was written. Anything and everything in it could be verified (or disproved) at the time simply by reference to police files, all of which were at his beck and call. He promotes Druitt as a suspect and studiously makes the point that he's never going to provide any evidence to support that claim. So, there is no evidence other than his claim. On that basis if I claim that you are a three headed shape-changing dwarf from the planet Zog because someone else on this forum privately messaged me that information (but I refuse to say who) does that make you a three headed shape-changing dwarf from the planet Zog? By your interpretation of what is claimed about Druitt you insist that such a statement has to be disproved. My view would be that it has to be proved.

Exactly! Good post Phil

And Mac even claimed he destroyed evidences, cannot believe we are dealing with a high ranked police officer.

I will not trust anything that comes from him again.



Tammy

[R. J. Palmer]

And you wouldn’t expect the cricket crowd to hang about for too long after the match finished, so maybe we have evidence that suggests the match was scheduled to finish shortly before 7.00?

I'm not sure I follow. What am I missing?

The town band and other festivities were at the Corn Exchange, about .6 miles away from the Recreation Grounds. Wouldn't that mean the match would be expected to finish up earlier, not later, so people could have a meal and make their way across town?

Rather pathetically, my Druitt obsession has left me studying the local Blandford political scene for the past few days.

Ed Stowe's account of the Blandford band performing on Thursday nights on the Recreation Ground (Post 297) dates to May 1888.

But these musical events appear to have been suspended; a local correspondent complains about it on June 23rd. Apparently, the crowd dancing after 8 pm was frowned upon.




With the cricket ground now free on Thursday evenings in June, there is an account of the cricket pitch used for military maneuvers, which might suggest they knew the match would have been long over. There was definitely a cricket game played on the grounds this same day.

I saw an account of Adjutant Law marching his men to the field at 7 pm on another night.

[Christer Holmgren]

I had not read this, RJ, when I posted my last one, but this makes sense to me as an argument for not totally dismissing Druitt. Someone, somewhere, once had reason to suspect he had been living a secret life of vice, whether they were right or wrong about the vice, or only imagined he had one.

JtR was a man with the worst secrets anyone could imagine, and he succeeded in taking them to the grave with him, because nobody has ever produced convincing evidence against any individual, named or not.

Love,

Caz
X

Not to be obtuse, but if Druitt was anything like the character R J describes and yearned for racy London, so much funnier than boring Dorset, then why is it that we have it on record that Druitt made a point of returning to Dorset every summer, staying for weeks on end?

[Caroline Brown]

It is an entirely reasonable conclusion, and it aligns with what Phil Sugden concluded years ago, and, like many others, I found Sugden's arguments generally persuasive. Druitt had spent his summer down in Dorset and thus was very likely to have had an alibi for the Tabram and Nichols murders.

It is entirely reasonable.

But Sugden's assumption was that Druitt was someone who would have behaved normally. No normal person who is staying down in Dorset and is playing cricket on August 30th and again on September 1st is going to inconveniently rush off to London within the small window available to him. And the idea that he would do it just to murder a woman in Buck's Row is difficult to fathom. All things considered, the odds are very much against it.

And Simon wonders why someone would go from Blandford to Canford via London, especially since he has plenty of local accommodations.

It's a fair question, and the sensible answer is that he wouldn't.

But I'm at a slight advantage, perhaps--or maybe a disadvantage depending on how this turns out---because I knew of a 30-year-old who did such things. Why? Because he was a sex and drug addict and though he tried, he couldn't resist the lure of the Big City and would disappear for a day or two at a time despite the wild inconvenience of it.

He was making late-night roundtrips of 250 miles, crawling back to town as the sun rose and returning to work with no one the wiser. It eventually caught up with him and he died from AIDS and it was only then that we learned of his secret wanderings. And this fellow (a coworker of mine) only had about a 12 hour window to make these extraordinary trips---it looks like Druitt could have had as much as 40 hours.

So I've actually been slightly exposed to this sort of behavior, so it doesn't strike me as implausible as it does most.

If Druitt was up to similar shenanigans, it doesn't even mean that he was the murderer. He could have bopped off to London to indulge in any number of bad habits, having grown bored with Dorset.

I had not read this, RJ, when I posted my last one, but this makes sense to me as an argument for not totally dismissing Druitt. Someone, somewhere, once had reason to suspect he had been living a secret life of vice, whether they were right or wrong about the vice, or only imagined he had one.

JtR was a man with the worst secrets anyone could imagine, and he succeeded in taking them to the grave with him, because nobody has ever produced convincing evidence against any individual, named or not.

Love,

Caz
X