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Proof of Innocence?

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  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Christer Holmgren View Post
    Out of curiosity: Why is it that I reoccuringly have to step in and correct you claiming things on my behalf?
    This is indeed tiresome, Christer.

    How are you "correcting me"? Are you trying to imply that you haven't argued that Chapman was killed around 3.30 a.m.? --thus coinciding with Lechmere's commute to work? Did I grotesquely misinterpret what was being implied in the 'Missing Evidence' documentary as well as your many posts on this subject?

    If so, I deeply apologize!


    I don't think it matters whether you were convinced by Bagster Phillips' guesstimate or by the arguments in Wolf Vandlerlinden's essay--that is beyond the subject of this thread. It suffices to say that you've argued for an earlier time of death than the generally accepted one. Which you now clarify as 4.30 a.m as the 'extreme' late time."

    Why did I bring up your name? It's a fair question.

    To be blunt, I deliberately chose to use a Lechmerian time-of-death--3.30 or earlier--or, as you now say, 4.30 a.m as the 'extreme late time'-- because I thought it would more easily hit home with Ed Stow. I adjusted my argument for the benefit of the poster, who in this case was Ed.

    And why is this unfair? The Lechmerians can't have it both ways, can they? The earlier they assume Chapman was murdered, the more time MJ Druitt has to make it back to Blackheath.

    Ed was asking, in what I imagined to have been an ominous undertone pregnant with doubt and skepticism, if Druitt playing cricket on September 8th "discounted him as a suspect."

    How could it discount him if the match began at 11.30 a.m. and we have been told that Chapman was killed at 4.30 a.m. or earlier? Perhaps even at 3.30 a.m., during the timeframe of Lechmere's commute?

    Does it take over 7 hours to get from Hanbury Street to Blackheath?

    That was the point of my post. I assumed it would have been self-evident, but I don't mind explaining it further.

    Even if we ignore your beliefs and accept a 5.30 time-of-death, give or take, that still leaves him 6 hours.

    Would you agree it was "doable," or do you consider this a safe alibi?

    Thanks.


    Leave a comment:


  • Christer Holmgren
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

    Ed, this match has been discussed as a potential alibi for MJD for the better part of 50 years. It was in Blackheath, and Rosenwater and Sugden have it starting at 11.30 a.m.

    If we use the Holmgren time of death of 3.30 a.m., that leaves 8 hours to get from Hanbury Street to Blackheath.

    (Personally, I think Chapman died closer to 5.30 a.m., so I'd call it 6 hours)
    As it happens, an early time of death is not "the Holmgren time", it is the Bagster Phillips time. And, of course, I would never try to establish a time that was fixed to a specific minute. What I am saying is that Phillips said that two hours, putting the TOD at 4.30, was the extreme late time to which he was willing to go, while he was of the meaning that Chapmans TOD probably needed to be placed earlier than so. That´s all.

    Out of curiosity: Why is it that I reoccuringly have to step in and correct you claiming things on my behalf? Not long ago I had to explain to you over on Casebook that you are not suited to explain to people what my convictions are. I do that myself, and rarely along the lines that you suggest on my behalf.

    It is becoming tedious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    The pundits were pretty much totally unfamiliar except one and he didn't understand the arguments put forward

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Unfamiliar with what on this thread, specifically?

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    Strange that the 'pundits' discussing this thread on that podcast were unfamiliar with it... including the one who is a contributor but who hasn't seemed to have read this thread very thoroughly, or at least not thoroughly enough to overcome their own confirmation bias.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    What is the source for Sugden’s claim that Druitt played in a match in Canford on 1st September?

    He mentions the Bournemouth Guardian of 1st and 8th and Rosenwater pp. 7, 22. It’s not clear which is the source for that particular match.
    I found it, it’s the Bournemouth Guardian 8/9.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
    There is a Rippercast podcast on this topic at Casebook, with Jonathan Menges, Ally Ryder, Steve Blomer and Mark Ripper:
    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-sticky-wicket
    Very enjoyable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    What is the source for Sugden’s claim that Druitt played in a match in Canford on 1st September?

    He mentions the Bournemouth Guardian of 1st and 8th and Rosenwater pp. 7, 22. It’s not clear which is the source for that particular match.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    There is a Rippercast podcast on this topic at Casebook, with Jonathan Menges, Ally Ryder, Steve Blomer and Mark Ripper:
    Oh, Dear Boss Druitt's on a Sticky Wicket with Steve Blomer, Mark Ripper, Ally Ryder and Jonathan Menges ODBart.jpg Available now to Stream or Download at the following link: https://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=331 Also in Apple & Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn Radio, and anywhere

    Leave a comment:


  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    We would have to see a record of that match.
    Was it a Druitt XI against a Christopherson Brothers XI?
    What time did it start?
    Where was it playede?
    Does it discount Druitt from the Chapman murder?
    Ed, this match has been discussed as a potential alibi for MJD for the better part of 50 years. It was in Blackheath, and Rosenwater and Sugden have it starting at 11.30 a.m.

    If we use the Holmgren time of death of 3.30 a.m., that leaves 8 hours to get from Hanbury Street to Blackheath.

    (Personally, I think Chapman died closer to 5.30 a.m., so I'd call it 6 hours)

    In discussing this timeline and whether it lets MJD off the hook, Dan Farson pointed out a case of a man who had beaten his mother with a frying pan (and then strangled her) but a few hours later was on the other side of London, being married in a church. Witnesses said the groom was the "happiest we had ever seen him."

    The Blandford game might be more problematic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Blomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
    We would have to see a record of that match.
    Was it a Druitt XI against a Christopherson Brothers XI?
    What time did it start?
    Where was it playede?
    Does it discount Druitt from the Chapman murder?
    It's the 8th September game,
    The score card is below

    The author is a cricket historian, I see no reason to doubt the cricketing points in the article.

    The point was to show that 1 innings matches did occurr.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    We would have to see a record of that match.
    Was it a Druitt XI against a Christopherson Brothers XI?
    What time did it start?
    Where was it playede?
    Does it discount Druitt from the Chapman murder?

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Blomer
    replied
    Going back slightly to the issue of one or two innings matches.
    I stumbled across this article this week

    Live Cricket News - Latest cricket updates, live cricket scores, cricket fan blogs, & world cup history. Discuss cricket's best innings, bowling spells, heroes, upsets, Sachin's records, IPL T20, world cup and more at Cricket Country - Cricket Country.


    It contained this little gem


    "The last major match he played was a single innings game against the Christopherson brothers, in which he took 3 for 38 in a 22-run win. In this game, Stanley Christopherson dismissed him and later Druitt returned the compliments. Significantly, the match was played on September 8, and started a few hours after the second Whitechapel murder."

    Leave a comment:


  • Edward Stow
    replied
    Kattrup
    If you read posts in this thread and others you will find your answer.
    I won't repeat it as it is off topic.

    Mr Banks
    It's an unknown but there is a probability.
    That is frequently the nature of historical enquiry.
    And I don't think anyone suggested that Druitt had nowhere to stay had he hypothetically traveled to London between cricket matches.
    I, for example, have suggested a hotel around Waterloo or the Chummery.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Banks
    replied
    So basically it’s being suggested that Druitt was of ‘no fixed abode?’ The cricket evidence has been shown not to prove that Druitt couldn’t have returned to London after all so now we’re trying to show that he had nowhere to stay even if he could have returned!

    “His Blackheath rooms were similarly probably not available to him, yet, again, we have repeated attempts to entertain his presence there.”

    So it’s an unknown that should be treated a a known?

    Leave a comment:

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