Proof of Innocence?

[R. J. Palmer]

Yes Abby, correct
Funny how Charles Cross is pronounced the ripper and a psychopath in spite of no evidence at all, he could easily be the ripper while being a hardworking family man, in fact it is more likely that he was a psycho because it’s clear he was just pretending to be normal. Whereas MJD couldn’t possibly be a psychopath because there’s no evidence of it.

I suspect that Christer is related to King Gustav V, but my guesses have fallen short lately. He is voicing the usual aristocratic disdain for the humble carman, when everyone knows the bluebloods and the 1%ers beat their own children with wire coat hangers just as frequently (or more so) than as the lower 99. It's just the statistical argument, hidden in class prejudice.

I'm interested with Ed Stow's reference to Public Schools.

At the risk of sounding like a cyber stalker, I was so amazed and impressed by the vehemence with which Phil Kellingley has attacked Sir Melville Macnaghten that I googled to see if he has ever written for The Ripperologist. I was expecting to find an article or two.

I noticed that someone with the same name has written a tour book about Winchester, and Mr. K identifies himself as a 'tourmeister.'

Druitt, of course, went to Winchester.

To each his own, but I do hope this isn't simply a case of an Old Wykehamist defending the school's honour against the slurs of an Old Etonian.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Caz,

Perhaps by using the name and suicide details of Druitt, but contriving to get his age and profession wrong, Macnaghten was actually disguising the identity of his real suspect.

Merely a passing thought.

Regards,

Simon

[Abby Normal]

Hi Caz,

Perhaps by using the name and suicide details of Druitt, but contriving to get his age and profession wrong, Macnaghten was actually disguising the identity of his real suspect.

Merely a passing thought.

Regards,

Simon

now why would he do that? these guys would have offered up there own mother if they thought they had the ripper

[Christer Holmgren]

ah yes druitt was so normal, successful, happy and well loved that he got canned from work for serious trouble and killed himself shortly thereafter. whatever he appeared to be (or was) that all changed during the fall/winter of 88 and he was obvioulsy in some kind of psychological downward spiral. Gacy was a pillar of society, bundy was highly respected by many in the upper eschelons of society, HH holmes was seen as a succesful businessman. Yes alot of serial killers are low lifes or perceived as at least as avg joes, but not all, by any means. I dont think you can really rule out or judge validity of suspects based on their public persona. but thats just me.

What it looks like to me, Abby, is that Druitt was a very active and positive member of society in his education days. Such a thing does not preclude that events in life bring you down at a later stage, even to a degree where you do away with yourself.

Just as a happy childhood does not guarantee a happy adulthood, a suicide as an adult does not guarantee a bad and abusive childhood.

The reason I do not think Druitt is a good candidate for the Rippers role is twofold.

One, he is the exact opposite of what a sexual serial killer is "normally" - he did not come from a broken home or a troubled childhood, he seems to have been a homosexual and homosexuals are not very likely to kill women, he would have been a commuter killer if he was the Ripper, and commuter killers are much rarer than marauders, He killed himself, and it is very rare that sexual serial killers do so.

Having listed these points, it must be said that none of them were known and researched in 1888. They did reason that criminality ran in families, as per the criminal anthropolgy teachings, but they were unaware of the coupling as such. They had no insight in how broken homes were possible instigators. They did not know that homosexual serial killers prey on men. The were unaware of the interrelation ebtween commuter killers and marauders. And they were equally unaware of how sexual serial killers are very unlikely to commit suicide. So we shoulp perhaps not be surprised about Macnaghtens choice of likely Ripper.

Two, somebody killed Annie Chapman, a prostitute, cut her abdomen open from sternum to crotch, cut away her abdominal wall in large panes, took out her uterus and stole her rings from her finger. And a trainmed medico said that the cutting was in part so skilful that he suspected a surgeon or anatomist was responsible.

Nine months later, Liz Jackson, a prostitute, was killed by somebody who cut her abdomen open from sternum to crotch, cut away her abdominal wall in large panes, took out her uterus and stole her ring from her finger. And a trained medico said that the cutting she suffered was skilfully carried out.

Very clearly, the same killer did for both these women. But when Liz Jackson died, Montague Druitt was dead. That´s as good an alibi as anybody is ever going to get.

You name Bundy, H H Holmes and Gacy. Bundy came from a background where he thought that his mother was his sister and that his grandmother was his mother. She was a woman suffereing from depression whereas his grandfather was known for fits of rage . He was a bit of a loner in high school, going on one date only. He did not excel academically. He had a childhood that was very different from that of Druitt.

Holmes´ father was a violent alcoholic and Holmes was bullied at school. He too is very different from Druitt.

Last, John Wayne Gacy - he too had an alcoholic and abusive father, who took it upon himself to constantly belittle his son. Again, no comparison at all to Druitt.

In fact, I don´t think you will find any sexual serial killer who had a childhood that compares to the one Druitt seems to have had. The examples you bring up are perhaps the closest - but lightyears away.

[Christer Holmgren]

Yes Abby, correct
Funny how Charles Cross is pronounced the ripper and a psychopath in spite of no evidence at all, he could easily be the ripper while being a hardworking family man, in fact it is more likely that he was a psycho because it’s clear he was just pretending to be normal. Whereas MJD couldn’t possibly be a psychopath because there’s no evidence of it.

It would not have made any difference if the man found by Nichols body and who said he was a witness had been a horse salesman from Reading, a professor in botanics, a billionaire from Texas or the pope.

It is not primarily Lechmeres background that makes him the prime suspect. And it is not his carmanship that tells us that we are dealing with a psychopath in the Ripper murders.

Nota bene that as always, the more outrageous claims are inventions not on my part, but on the confused posters. Kattrup here finds it okay to make believe that I would have said that Druitt "couldn´t possibly be a psychopath".

I of course never said such a thing, for the simple reason that I never entirely rule out what I cannot entirely rule out. But that does not stop enterprising inventors like our Danish friend!

I have said that Druitt seems an entirely implausible Ripper to me, but that´s as far as it goes - regardless of any claims made by careless posters.

[Christer Holmgren]

I suspect that Christer is related to King Gustav V, but my guesses have fallen short lately. He is voicing the usual aristocratic disdain for the humble carman, when everyone knows the bluebloods and the 1%ers beat their own children with wire coat hangers just as frequently (or more so) than as the lower 99. It's just the statistical argument, hidden in class prejudice.

I'm interested with Ed Stow's reference to Public Schools.

At the risk of sounding like a cyber stalker, I was so amazed and impressed by the vehemence with which Phil Kellingley has attacked Sir Melville Macnaghten that I googled to see if he has ever written for The Ripperologist. I was expecting to find an article or two.

I noticed that someone with the same name has written a tour book about Winchester, and Mr. K identifies himself as a 'tourmeister.'

Druitt, of course, went to Winchester.

To each his own, but I do hope this isn't simply a case of an Old Wykehamist defending the school's honour against the slurs of an Old Etonian.

No, I am not related to Gustav V, as far as I know, R J. Are you perhaps related to Allan Kardec?

[Christer Holmgren]

What I don't understand is the point of Macnaghten deliberately disguising his suspect, by adding a decade to his age and giving him a different profession, if he is then going to identify him by his real name anyway. Couldn't he have written something to the effect that he knows the man's identity, but is withholding it because he took his own life after the 'last' murder, and no good could come of naming him now? Isn't that his excuse for destroying his 'private information' on Druitt? If that information wasn't essential for comparison purposes with Cutbush, why does he consider it essential to give Druitt's real identity, thinking that the wrong age and profession are going to fool anyone if it ever sees the light of day? Why could he not use a pseudonym, or something akin to Joe Bloggs, if his aim was to protect the Druitt family from the stigma?

Love,

Caz
X

A very good question, that.

[Chris Phillips]

I'm working through the fixtures for 1887-1889 at the moment. When I have made some tidy notes, I plan to post them

I think searching through old newspapers for old cricket scores must be almost as boring as actually watching cricket. But I hope to be finished later today.

Meanwhile, this caught my eye, and seemed appropriate:

[Edward Stow]

I actually wouldn't mind going through a bound copy of the Blandford Express and Mid Dorsetshire Cottager, but I will have to steal myself for a day of microfiche reading at the British Library, that will be the only extra resource.

[Chris Phillips]

I actually wouldn't mind going through a bound copy of the Blandford Express and Mid Dorsetshire Cottager, but I will have to steal myself for a day of microfiche reading at the British Library, that will be the only extra resource.

If you do, there is also Tribbett's Wareham Advertiser/J. W. Tribbett's Wareham and Isle of Purbeck Advertiser, and Swanage Visitors' List (all one title), which might have reported the 30 August game from the Purbeck end.

[Edward Stow]

Yes I shall check.
None of these are held by Dorset Archives.

[Edward Stow]

I wonder if the Swanage visitors list was literally a listing of people staying in the Grosvenor Hotel for snob-docial reasons- which I think was the only 'grand' one at the time.

[Phillip Walton]

I just had a look in the 1891 census for what I thought was the least common name, G. Upward (though it seems it may not be all that uncommon in Dorset), and all the Dorset candidates seemed to be manual workers. With only initials to go on, it's a bit difficult to know.

The idea of a Victorian village cricket match I have in my mind involves a fair number of farm labourers, but I'm not sure where that comes from and it may be erroneous.

There would be no farm labourers playing cricket in August, they would be too busy getting the harvest in.

[Phillip Walton]

If you rated all the ripper suspects from 1-10 as to the likelihood of them being the ripper none would be higher than 2 on the scale. At one time I would have put Druitt as a 2 but as more information comes through he is IMHO barely rated as one.

[R. J. Palmer]

If you do, there is also Tribbett's Wareham Advertiser/J. W. Tribbett's Wareham and Isle of Purbeck Advertiser, and Swanage Visitors' List (all one title), which might have reported the 30 August game from the Purbeck end.

If it was me, and I was attempting to maintain the proper objectivity, I would look for evidence in the Wareham or the Isle of Purbeck papers to see whether they mention the Rev. Spencer-Smith, or the clay mine owner, Laurence Pike, or the sons of the Rev. Bankes, being back in Corfe Castle on August 31st--at a church meeting, etc

That is something there might be some actual hope of finding--the Rev. being somewhere other than Blandford on the morning of the 31st. Not everyone has the luxury to hang around the opposing team's town after the match and spending the night and going to the Industrial Expo.

But even this wouldn't tell me anything about whether or not Druitt didn't board the first available train after the match. In theory, he could have been the odd-man out.