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Proof of Innocence?

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  • Getting back to the Blue Pool or the pullpit in Corfe, Wareham or even Swanage for 31st, even after a night on the lash in Blandford - whether or not the expo acted as a magnet for the local ladies of the night (the, cough, rough sleeper community) - would not be super difficult by train or charabanc even if they set off in the morning.

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    • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
      I think searching through old newspapers for old cricket scores must be almost as boring as actually watching cricket.
      I have next to no experience to guide me, but the only time I ever saw cricket being played was many years ago while walking in (I think) Pimlico. It was the morning and there wasn't a spectator in sight, which is why I suspect (possibly inaccurately) that the players in these rural matches didn't particularly care if their games aligned with the leisure time of the local yokels. However, this could be a false impression of mine.

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      • It isn't really whether the players wanted spectators or not. It was a Rec event to entertain the townsfolk.

        The match reported on here previously, above, at Sir Trevor Marriott's country pile was enjoyed by all, partly because of the crowd in attendance, be they ne'er so vile, who were all royally fed and watered in the kitchens. Which no doubt gentled their condition.

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        • Originally posted by Phillip Walton View Post

          There would be no farm labourers playing cricket in August, they would be too busy getting the harvest in.
          It seems from another report posted later on the thread that membership of Blandford Cricket Club was beyond the means of farm labourers, so that idea was a bit of a red herring:
          https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/pers...791#post588791

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          • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
            Getting back to the Blue Pool or the pullpit in Corfe, Wareham or even Swanage for 31st, even after a night on the lash in Blandford - whether or not the expo acted as a magnet for the local ladies of the night (the, cough, rough sleeper community) - would not be super difficult by train or charabanc even if they set off in the morning.
            This is true, but we speculate from a position of ignorance and our speculations have an odd habit of aligning with what we want to have happened.

            I don't have a particular pony in this race, but I do worry that this 'alibi' could end up biting me in the backside--even though that possibility seems slight to most.

            The Victorians were a hardy lot, and maybe the Rev. Smith was back in Corfe Castle giving a temperance meeting by 8 p.m., depending on whether the local trains allowed it. And Pike's employee George Upward would presumably have to be back in the clay pit on Friday--it may have been payday and on his marriage banns he is described as a 'clerk' in the mine, whatever that may have entailed.

            But I worry too much--I should be carefree like Simon and be toasting the death of the Druitt theory.

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            • I don't know how, if you don't have a dog on this fight (a better metaphor), that it can bite you anywhere. But then people without any sort of dog - be it poodle or puppy, be it disguised as a pony - are actually rare. There are all types of theories and anti theories, not necessarily suspect related that condition thinking.
              Hence the presumption of triumphalism over this discovery, and the accusations of insertion of other suspects - which is invariably done by anti theorists as seen most recently above.

              I suspect it will not be possible to get a definitive time, but we will see.
              As for the humbler players such as Upward, he most likely got back on Thursday, due to his station I life (rather than Wareham Station).

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              • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                This is true, but we speculate from a position of ignorance and our speculations have an odd habit of aligning with what we want to have happened.

                I don't have a particular pony in this race, but I do worry that this 'alibi' could end up biting me in the backside--even though that possibility seems slight to most.

                The Victorians were a hardy lot, and maybe the Rev. Smith was back in Corfe Castle giving a temperance meeting by 8 p.m., depending on whether the local trains allowed it. And Pike's employee George Upward would presumably have to be back in the clay pit on Friday--it may have been payday and on his marriage banns he is described as a 'clerk' in the mine, whatever that may have entailed.

                But I worry too much--I should be carefree like Simon and be toasting the death of the Druitt theory.
                But would even the Rev. Smith being back at Corfe Castle by 8pm mean that Druitt had time to get to London that night?

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                • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                  I think searching through old newspapers for old cricket scores must be almost as boring as actually watching cricket. But I hope to be finished later today.
                  I've put my notes on the Blandford Cricket Club matches for 1887-1889 in the "Resources" section here:
                  https://jtrforums.com/resources/BlandfordCC.pdf

                  No doubt I haven't managed to find them all, so any additions will be welcome. But I think there may already be more information there than people want...

                  I'll post a few thoughts about it when I have a chance.

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                  • Originally posted by Christer Holmgren View Post

                    What it looks like to me, Abby, is that Druitt was a very active and positive member of society in his education days. Such a thing does not preclude that events in life bring you down at a later stage, even to a degree where you do away with yourself.

                    Just as a happy childhood does not guarantee a happy adulthood, a suicide as an adult does not guarantee a bad and abusive childhood.

                    The reason I do not think Druitt is a good candidate for the Rippers role is twofold.

                    One, he is the exact opposite of what a sexual serial killer is "normally" - he did not come from a broken home or a troubled childhood, he seems to have been a homosexual and homosexuals are not very likely to kill women, he would have been a commuter killer if he was the Ripper, and commuter killers are much rarer than marauders, He killed himself, and it is very rare that sexual serial killers do so.

                    Having listed these points, it must be said that none of them were known and researched in 1888. They did reason that criminality ran in families, as per the criminal anthropolgy teachings, but they were unaware of the coupling as such. They had no insight in how broken homes were possible instigators. They did not know that homosexual serial killers prey on men. The were unaware of the interrelation ebtween commuter killers and marauders. And they were equally unaware of how sexual serial killers are very unlikely to commit suicide. So we shoulp perhaps not be surprised about Macnaghtens choice of likely Ripper.

                    Two, somebody killed Annie Chapman, a prostitute, cut her abdomen open from sternum to crotch, cut away her abdominal wall in large panes, took out her uterus and stole her rings from her finger. And a trainmed medico said that the cutting was in part so skilful that he suspected a surgeon or anatomist was responsible.

                    Nine months later, Liz Jackson, a prostitute, was killed by somebody who cut her abdomen open from sternum to crotch, cut away her abdominal wall in large panes, took out her uterus and stole her ring from her finger. And a trained medico said that the cutting she suffered was skilfully carried out.

                    Very clearly, the same killer did for both these women. But when Liz Jackson died, Montague Druitt was dead. That´s as good an alibi as anybody is ever going to get.

                    You name Bundy, H H Holmes and Gacy. Bundy came from a background where he thought that his mother was his sister and that his grandmother was his mother. She was a woman suffereing from depression whereas his grandfather was known for fits of rage . He was a bit of a loner in high school, going on one date only. He did not excel academically. He had a childhood that was very different from that of Druitt.

                    Holmes´ father was a violent alcoholic and Holmes was bullied at school. He too is very different from Druitt.

                    Last, John Wayne Gacy - he too had an alcoholic and abusive father, who took it upon himself to constantly belittle his son. Again, no comparison at all to Druitt.

                    In fact, I don´t think you will find any sexual serial killer who had a childhood that compares to the one Druitt seems to have had. The examples you bring up are perhaps the closest - but lightyears away.
                    hi fish
                    yes you make some good points, as usual, but I cant discount druitt, or even give him a check mark against his validity as a suspect, based on his public persona, for the same reason I dont for lechs apparent solid background and life. I know about too many serial killers who before they were caught appeared normal or apparently exceeding in life. Ive never put much weight in that kind of argument. but we do know there were some problems appearing with druitt, apparently none for lech. But as you know I think both are valid suspects, so I should probably end this line of debate now, or Ill soon end up arguing with myself lol.

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                    • In 1881, George Upward was recorded as a ‘clay miner’ while boarding on Branksea (Brownsea) Island. In 1891, he was living in Furzebrook and was recorded as a ‘weighman of clay works’. The occupation of ‘weighman’ also appears on the marriage record of his daughter Eva in 1892.

                      The occupation of ‘clerk’ appears on George Upward’s marriage record of 1870* and on that of his daughter, Alice Maud Mary (1908).

                      Upward’s daughters married two brothers, William Henry White (Alice) and Arthur White (Eva). William Henry was a ‘mining foreman’.


                      *I haven’t been able to locate the banns, which don’t usually record occupations.



                      Photo: Brownsea Island in Poole Harbour.





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                      • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                        I've put my notes on the Blandford Cricket Club matches for 1887-1889 in the "Resources" section here:
                        https://jtrforums.com/resources/BlandfordCC.pdf

                        No doubt I haven't managed to find them all, so any additions will be welcome. But I think there may already be more information there than people want...

                        I'll post a few thoughts about it when I have a chance.
                        That’s very useful, Chris.

                        We should use the ‘Resources’ resource more often.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                          Mrs Brown
                          Actually you have a point. Had it been ‘discovered’ that Montague had traversed up to the big smoke to hook up with a chum – at say – Wilson’s place in Chiswick for example, then it wouldn’t be too surprising.
                          It is fair to presume that he was familiar with that establishment and had engaged in such activities before. But rushing off on a non-promise of finding a ‘rough sleeper’ at the far eastern reaches of Whitechapel, an area with which we can only presume he was unfamiliar? That is a somewhat different proposition.
                          It would be a different proposition, Mister Ed, because you insist on presuming that those serial killers who favour a hunting ground well away from where they live and work do not bother to check it out for its merits or dangers first, or to familiarise themselves with the main streets which will become their escape routes, before launching themselves into committing murder there - which makes little sense.

                          For me, a far better argument against Druitt being a commuter killer, who operated in a very specific area, like the 'Gay Slayer' Colin Ireland [who travelled by train up from Southend in 1993, for the purpose of picking up a male victim from a pub in west London, where he had no known connections, before travelling back down again the following morning after murdering him in his own home] would be that I suspect the murders began before Nichols and went on long after Druitt's body was recovered from the Thames.

                          If Colin Ireland hadn't tipped off the police anonymously, that his victims were linked to one killer, and if he hadn't been caught on CCTV with one of them, some of the posters to this thread would refuse to consider that a series of five murders had been committed, much less by someone who had come up to that one London pub on each occasion from the Essex coast, on account of his most peculiar compulsion.

                          As they say oop north, there's nowt so queer as folk.

                          There's no evidence Ireland was gay, but I suspect he was, or at least had secret leanings in that direction, and probably resented men who flaunted it.

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X


                          I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

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                          • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
                            I don't know how, if you don't have a dog on this fight (a better metaphor), that it can bite you anywhere. But then people without any sort of dog - be it poodle or puppy, be it disguised as a pony - are actually rare.
                            Well played.

                            Let me rephrase. Admittedly, I do have 2 or 3 (or 4) dogs in my kennel so it would be to my advantage to see the greyhound Blackheath dead & buried before the mechanical rabbit goes flying around the track and my dogs are set loose.

                            But currently, Blackheath only limps (however badly).

                            Setting aside my bad metaphor, I am more interested in the limited question of whether MJD had an iron-clad alibi in 1888. If it turns out that he does indeed have an alibi, then it would have considerable significance beyond the mere question of his guilt or innocence. It would verify Macnaghten's alleged incompetence and/or dishonesty, as well as the Met's, perhaps.

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                            • It would seem that in 1881 George Upward’s employer would have been George Cavendish-Bentinck, who at that time owned the Branksea Clay and Pottery Company.

                              http://www.swuklink.com/BAAAGBZR.php

                              And, although he married a Purbeck woman, Upward was originally from Blandford.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                ... I know about too many serial killers who before they were caught appeared normal or apparently exceeding in life...
                                -- Does that mean you know of serial killers who were actually dentists, lawyers, surgeons, judges, university professors, business executives...? ('Family doctors' I needn't mention, as we know of Shipman; and killing your own elderly patients is probably a special case anyhow...)

                                Or is this kind of killer more a trope of film fiction than a psychosocial reality?

                                Genuine question, old bean!

                                M.

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