Proof of Innocence?

[Christer Holmgren]

Hi Mark and Fish
No they generally arent in those professions point taken. but we also know druitt got sacked for "serious trouble". so during the fall/winter of 88 he wasnt exactly that great of a member of the upper echelons of society was he?

For me, what is of interest is his formative school years, because I think that period holds the key. At this stage, those who become serial killers are not in any way likely to be the kind of person that Druitt was.
History is filled with people from upper society as well as very successful and eminently performing ones who took their lives for various reasons. Certainly, many of them had great childhoods and many would have excelled at school. Serial killers, however, do not come from that kind of childhood and school year backgrounds.

[Christer Holmgren]

Back on Post #652, Roger spoke of D.J. Leighton's book on Druitt. Leighton reported of Druitt playing on Aug 3 & 4, 1888 for the Gentlemen of Bournemouth. They went up against Parsees, a team that was touring from India.

As Roger mentioned, Leighton went on to write on page 110 of his book about how "A couple of days later" Druitt played for the Gentlemen of Dorset against that same Parsees team.

Leighton wrote a little more about it later in his book. On page 192 we find this: (Tabram) was a prostitute and at the time most people believed she was the first victim of Jack the Ripper. This was the time when Montague played five days cricket as part of the Bournemouth Cricket Week between 4-11 August, including 6 August.

So far, there has been no luck in finding the Aug 6th scorecard. Bournemouth Cricket Week has a legitimate sounding title. Leighton's book had a number of cricket sources in his bibliography. Perhaps he found out about Bournemouth Cricket Week from one of those sources.

Montague Druitt, commuter killer.

[Edward Stow]

My interpretation of the information Chris has assembled about the length of matches at the Recreation Ground based on innings, is that the 30th match was intended to be a short match. It was probably shorter than anticipated as it was low scoring.
Why a one innings match?
We know it was on a Thursday - the day where Blandford had early closing from 4pm and Thursday was the usual day for mid week cricket matches in Blandford - with other events scheduled at the Recreation Ground from 7pm.
We know that a special expo was taking place in Blandford at the time.
We know the weather was bad.
It certainly looks to me that the match probably took place from 4pm.

[R. J. Palmer]

MORE COMPLICATIONS

Back on Post #652, Roger spoke of D.J. Leighton's book on Druitt. Leighton reported of Druitt playing on Aug 3 & 4, 1888 for the Gentlemen of Bournemouth. They went up against Parsees, a team that was touring from India.

As Roger mentioned, Leighton went on to write on page 110 of his book about how "A couple of days later" Druitt played for the Gentlemen of Dorset against that same Parsees team.

Leighton wrote a little more about it later in his book. On page 192 we find this: (Tabram) was a prostitute and at the time most people believed she was the first victim of Jack the Ripper. This was the time when Montague played five days cricket as part of the Bournemouth Cricket Week between 4-11 August, including 6 August.

So far, there has been no luck in finding the Aug 6th scorecard. Bournemouth Cricket Week has a legitimate sounding title. Leighton's book had a number of cricket sources in his bibliography. Perhaps he found out about Bournemouth Cricket Week from one of those sources.

Hi Joe!

--Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

Personally, I remain unconvinced that Leighton has given Druitt an alibi for the Tabram murder.

This would have been a major tour-de-force for his book but, strange to say, he is very vague on details and provides neither a scorecard nor any other specific reference for this important game. I find that odd.

As you state, he claims that Druitt played against the Parsee team on August 6th during cricket week in Bournemouth. This was a Monday.

Yet, despite the Parsee's tour of England being widely publicized, the report of Cricket Week in Bournemouth posted by Gary makes no mention of this match. This is strange. All it mentions is a game between M.C.C and Bournemouth on that date. Nothing about the Gentlemen of Dorset playing the Parsees.

Meanwhile, the issue of Cricket for August 9th, adds a further complication, because it shows that the Parsees playing in Norfolk on August 7th. (Reprinted below). No mention of any game on August 6th, either.

Norfolk is roughly 220 miles from Bournemouth. Can Leighton explain how the Parsees managed to play in Bournemouth on August 6th, and on August 7th they were playing 220 miles away? It seems pretty unlikely. August 6th would have been their day of travel.

I might be proven wrong, but I strongly suspect that Leighton got his wires got crossed. Unless I see a scorecard, I am not satisfied that Druitt has an alibi.

That said, it is certainly possible that MJD stayed in Bournemouth for Cricket week and played in other games--this would certainly make sense and needs to be investigated.

So thanks for your observations.


(The following is a little difficult to read, but it states that the "Parsee were at Norwich on Tuesday (August 7th)" The score above it is the match Druitt played in Bournemouth on August 3/4th. No mention of any game by the Parsees on August 6th--which is a curious omission) .

[Gary Barnett]

MORE COMPLICATIONS



Hi Joe!

--Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

Personally, I remain unconvinced that Leighton has given Druitt an alibi for the Tabram murder.

This would have been a major tour-de-force for his book but, strange to say, he is very vague on details and provides neither a scorecard nor any other specific reference for this important game. I find that odd.

As you state, he claims that Druitt played against the Parsee team on August 6th during cricket week in Bournemouth. This was a Monday.

Yet, despite the Parsee's tour of England being widely publicized, the report of Cricket Week in Bournemouth posted by Gary makes no mention of this match. This is strange. All it mentions is a game between M.C.C and Bournemouth on that date. Nothing about the Gentlemen of Dorset playing the Parsees.

Meanwhile, the issue of Cricket for August 9th, adds a further complication, because it shows that the Parsees playing in Norfolk on August 7th. (Reprinted below). No mention of any game on August 6th, either.

Norfolk is roughly 220 miles from Bournemouth. Can Leighton explain how the Parsees managed to play in Bournemouth on August 6th, and on August 7th they were playing 220 miles away? It seems pretty unlikely. August 6th would have been their day of travel.

I might be proven wrong, but I strongly suspect that Leighton got his wires got crossed. Unless I see a scorecard, I am not satisfied that Druitt has an alibi.

That said, it is certainly possible that MJD stayed in Bournemouth for Cricket week and played in other games--this would certainly make sense and needs to be investigated.

So thanks for your observations.


(The following is a little difficult to read, but it states that the "Parsee were at Norwich on Tuesday (August 7th)" The score above it is the match Druitt played in Bournemouth on August 3/4th. No mention of any game by the Parsees on August 6th--which is a curious omission) .

Druitt played for Bournemouth against The Parsees on 3rd and 4th August.

[R. J. Palmer]

The actual quote is "The Parsee team, who have been showing good all-round cricket, very nearly one another match this week, being only beaten at Norwich on Tuesday by one wicket."

[Jay Hartley]

For me, what is of interest is his formative school years, because I think that period holds the key. At this stage, those who become serial killers are not in any way likely to be the kind of person that Druitt was. History is filled with people from upper society as well as very successful and eminently performing ones who took their lives for various reasons. Certainly, many of them had great childhoods and many would have excelled at school. Serial killers, however, do not come from that kind of childhood and school year backgrounds.

Ted Bundy was involved with politics. John Wayne Gacy was a successful local businessman. Denis Nielsen was a civil servant. There are many more examples.

Whilst not exactly bastions of high society, they were not living on the edges of society either. They functioned at a good level.

Serial killer flags of psychological disturbances are usually exhibited from a far younger age than teenage years.

Realistically there is every chance of Druitt being a psychopath as there is Lechmere, and we know equally little about both that gives us hard indicators of such.

What I will add is that suicide of serial killers happens usually just before or after they are caught. I’m not aware of any incidence where a serial killer has killed themselves because of remorse before capture. Druitt’s note that his brother found suggests he was more concerned generally with his own mental health which he probably felt was escalating after his dismissal.

I struggle to see Druitt fitting the psychological profile of a serial killer but it would be churlish to rule it out outright.

[R. J. Palmer]

From Cricket… August 9th:

Yes, but to be clear, we know that: that's the August 3rd/4th match mentioned by Sugden, etc. But Leighton also claims that Druitt played the same team (the Parsees) "a couple of days later." (August 6th) This time as a member of the Gentleman of Dorset.

There is no source for this claim. The Parsees were in Norfolk on August 7th, as proven by the score card I posted above.

Where is the evidence that Druitt played the Parsees on August 6th?

[Gary Barnett]

Yes, but to be clear, we know that: that's the August 3rd/4th match mentioned by Sugden, etc. But Leighton also claims that Druitt played the same team (the Parsees) "a couple of days later." (August 6th) This time as a member of the Gentleman of Dorset.

There is no source for this claim. The Parsees were in Norfolk on August 7th, as proven by the score card I posted above.

Where is the evidence that Druitt played the Parsees on August 6th?

There is none that I can see. It seems unlikely that the Parsees would have played a game in Dorset on 6th and then played another in Norfolk the next day.

[Gary Barnett]

The match against the Hampshire Hogs on Weds 8th was the third match of Bournemouth Cricket Week. The first and second presumably being against the Parsees and the MCC.

[Gary Barnett]

Here’s some info on the Parsees 1888 tour. There’s no mention of a match against the Gentlemen of Dorset on 6th August.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QBu7DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=M.+C.+C.+Gentlemen+of+Bournemouth+1888&source=bl&ots=vh7wKn78NX&sig=ACfU3U13ROavPJqs3kjVCUg2JA6jjmyghw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQosqKs4H3AhXTasAKHQw5BocQ6AF6BAg2EAI#v=onepage&q=M.%20C.%20C.%20Gentlemen%20of%20Bournemouth%201888&f=true

https://internationalcricket.fandom....ngland_in_1888

[Gary Barnett]

Bournemouth Cricket Week 1888

1. Bournemouth vs the Parsees: 3rd/4th Aug
2. Bournemouth vs the M. C. C.: 6th Aug
3. Bournemouth vs the Hampshire Hogs: 8th Aug
4. Bournemouth vs Mr Wanklyn’s XI: 9th Aug
5. Bournemouth vs the Gents of Dorset: 10th/11th Aug

[Christer Holmgren]

Ted Bundy was involved with politics. John Wayne Gacy was a successful local businessman. Denis Nielsen was a civil servant. There are many more examples.

Whilst not exactly bastions of high society, they were not living on the edges of society either. They functioned at a good level.

Serial killer flags of psychological disturbances are usually exhibited from a far younger age than teenage years.

Realistically there is every chance of Druitt being a psychopath as there is Lechmere, and we know equally little about both that gives us hard indicators of such.

What I will add is that suicide of serial killers happens usually just before or after they are caught. I’m not aware of any incidence where a serial killer has killed themselves because of remorse before capture. Druitt’s note that his brother found suggests he was more concerned generally with his own mental health which he probably felt was escalating after his dismissal.

I struggle to see Druitt fitting the psychological profile of a serial killer but it would be churlish to rule it out outright.

Somehow, this has turned into a thread where I would supposedly have claimed that serial killers cannot succeed in life. That is genuinely strange, since I have never made that claim. Some serial killers have very high IQ:s, and many are narcissists. Couple those elements, and it goes without saying that there will be serial killers who rise in society. No, the point I am making is that I do not think that there is a single example of a violent serial killer who thrived and excelled in school the way Druitt did. Serial killers seem never to embrace the norms of these surroundings - they do not become secretaries, cashiers and chairmen of school clubs, and they are never the center of admiration and popularity for fellow students. That is what I am saying, not that serial killers cannot move up the social ladder. Bundy did, Gacy did, Cottingham did - but look at their childhoods and how they performed in school. Not least, look at whether or not they were the center of positive feelings and admiration on part of their fellow students. Druitt remains a totally unlikely psychopath for these reasons.

[Chris Phillips]

I think the content of this thread has diverged into two distinct themes that have very little to do with each other - Druitt's cricket fixtures and whether Druitt is a plausible serial killer.

So I wanted to sound out people's opinions. Would it be helpful to start a new thread on just the cricket? Someone did start a new thread on the other theme, but the discussion of it here has continued as well.

If it would be helpful to start a cricket thread, should it be just one thread or two threads, now that there is discussion about two different matches?

[Gary Barnett]

Yes, Mike kindly started the other thread to draw non-relevant discussions away from the cricket research, but that thread now seems to have developed into a vehicle for a personal vendetta against him.

Perhaps one or two new threads relating to the two matches - Blandford Vs Purbeck and Bournemouth Vs MCC - might be a good idea. Only to be used for significant new info about those matches.