Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Proof of Innocence?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Just a quick point. A sodden waterlogged pitch doesn’t favour the bowlers. Ask any bowler and they will tell you to a man that if it’s wet then they won’t want to bowl. The pitch is like a pudding so the ball doesn’t move around plus the ball goes through slower so they lose pace. They also struggle to grip a wet ball and there’s a real risk of them slipping on wet grass and getting injured (especially for quicker bowlers with longer run-ups like Druitt.) Wickets become better for bowlers when they have dried out but still maintain a bit of dampness. It’s worth mentioning of course that lower level cricketers might have been more willing to play on in poorer conditions than higher level ones.

    ​​​​​​…..

    That suggested scenario from Ed doesn’t really work because if they started late and decided on a one innings game then Purbeck wouldn’t have needed to have batted on. They would have won the game as soon as they had scored 26. If they had run out of time after just scoring another 36 how could they have even entertained the possibility of them completing a two innings game? So for me its likelier that the rain occurred either during or at the end. Even if it had occurred during the game it’s difficult to see why they would have bothered playing on given that they only managed 62 runs with no chance of completing two more full innings? It’s seems likelier that the rain came at the latter part of Purbeck’s innings (say 5 or 10 minutes before it was decided that they should go off) or during a break. Ed’s 12.00-2.30 estimate ties up fairly closely with a 2.00 luncheon. If they began at 12.00 it’s far from impossible that those 2 short innings might have been achieved by a 2.00 luncheon break. Then, with rain, the game could have been abandoned during that break.

    As we’ve seen that we only have evidence of starting times for 4 of Blandford’s games (and these were, one game at just before 12.00, two games at around 12.30 and and one game at 1.30 then why couldn’t the game have started at 12.00 with the 2 short innings being completed between 2.00 and 2.30? If it started raining at the latter part of the Purbeck innings the teams would have had the luncheon break to assess the rain (to see if it stopped or to see how badly it had affected the pitch. At the end of luncheon it might still have been raining heavilily so the game was called off around 2.45 giving Druitt ample time to catch the train.

    We can only go on the current evidence that we have available to us on what time the game started and the current evidence says 75% for 12.00-12.30, 25% for 1.30 and zero for any later start time. I don’t think that we should ignore this in favour for a later start time for which there appears to be no evidence.
    Regards

    Michael🔎


    " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Edward Stow View Post
      Southampton
      Temperature: 48.2-64.4 Degrees F
      Rain: 0.31 inches
      Sunshine: 9 hours
      Showers of rain at midday (some very heavy)
      Between 9.30 am to ? pm Lightning from 2.49 till ?

      The remarks for Southampton are indistinct.
      As the Hurst Castle report is in a totally different format and different timescale it is difficult to use it to guage the weather on the Thursday afternoon.
      Here's a larger version of the handwritten Southampton report:

      Click image for larger version

Name:	southampton_large.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	27.0 KB
ID:	589881
      I read that as "Show[ers] of [rain] at int[ervals] (some very heavy)
      betw[een] 9.30 AM. & 4.10 P.M. [Thunder and lightning] from 2.49 till 1.20 P.M."

      I think 2.49 here should clearly read 12.49. The printed version for Southampton has thunder and lightning at 1pm and thunder at 2.20pm.

      I think the symbol formed by a "T" with a zig-zag line does mean both thunder and lightning. In the printed Southampton table both the "T" and the zig-zag line can be seen on their own. So both thunder and lightning at Southampton and Stowell, and just thunder at Cullompton.

      For the Hurst Castle report, as you say it is in a different format from the others. But the figures that should be comparable are the maximum and minimum temperature (in the shade) 64 and 47 and the 24-hour rainfall (measured at 8am on Friday) which was zero. I think if the Met Office does hold any more information on paper than I found online, it is likely to be for Hurst Castle, as that was classed as a "First Order" weather station.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Michael Banks View Post
        As we’ve seen that we only have evidence of starting times for 4 of Blandford’s games (and these were, one game at just before 12.00, two games at around 12.30 and and one game at 1.30 then why couldn’t the game have started at 12.00 with the 2 short innings being completed between 2.00 and 2.30?
        Can I just ask about those two 12.30 games? I can't find them in my notes. Maybe I'm missing something.

        Comment


        • The game on 15th August 1887 mentions a 2.00 luncheon. Then the game on the 20th August 1889 has Blandford scoring 40-3 by luncheon. We don’t know when luncheon was taken in this game but if it was the same as in the other then 2.00 is an estimate. These days luncheon is usually at 1.00 I believe.

          It doesn’t mention a start time but there had to be a period of pre-luncheon play which I’d estimate at least one and a half hours of play. Giving a start time of 12.30.
          Regards

          Michael🔎


          " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Michael Banks View Post
            The game on 15th August 1887 mentions a 2.00 luncheon. Then the game on the 20th August 1889 has Blandford scoring 40-3 by luncheon. We don’t know when luncheon was taken in this game but if it was the same as in the other then 2.00 is an estimate. These days luncheon is usually at 1.00 I believe.

            It doesn’t mention a start time but there had to be a period of pre-luncheon play which I’d estimate at least one and a half hours of play. Giving a start time of 12.30.
            Thanks for explaining, but to my mind that's a bit too indirect to be taken as a start time of around 12.30. In fact for the 15 August 1887, the report reads to me as though luncheon preceded the game. But in any case that wasn't at Blandford, but at the home of the president of the club, so it will not be typical.

            For that matter, we should also bear in mind that none of those games was on a Thursday,

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

              Thanks for explaining, but to my mind that's a bit too indirect to be taken as a start time of around 12.30. In fact for the 15 August 1887, the report reads to me as though luncheon preceded the game. But in any case that wasn't at Blandford, but at the home of the president of the club, so it will not be typical.

              For that matter, we should also bear in mind that none of those games was on a Thursday,
              I’m not saying that’s impossible Chris but personally I’ve never heard of a luncheon occurring before a game started and we do have the game where Blandford scored 40-3 before luncheon. All we have to go on is the 4 games that we have for Blandford. Not conclusive of course.
              Regards

              Michael🔎


              " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Michael Banks View Post

                I’m not saying that’s impossible Chris but personally I’ve never heard of a luncheon occurring before a game started and we do have the game where Blandford scored 40-3 before luncheon. All we have to go on is the 4 games that we have for Blandford. Not conclusive of course.
                Well, as I keep saying, our personal experience is not going to tell us what happened in the 1880s. And as for how long 40 runs would take, to see how uncertain that is, you only have to look at another of the games you're citing - 17 August 1887 - in which 159 runs were scored between 12 and lunchtime. That would give you a completely different estimate of how long 40 runs would take. You'd end up with a start time of 1.30, not 12.30.

                I think we need to draw a clear distinction between what's explicitly stated in these reports on one hand, and our inferences on the other. Because everyone will draw different inferences.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael Banks View Post
                  As we’ve seen that we only have evidence of starting times for 4 of Blandford’s games (and these were, one game at just before 12.00, two games at around 12.30 and and one game at 1.30 then why couldn’t the game have started at 12.00 with the 2 short innings being completed between 2.00 and 2.30? If it started raining at the latter part of the Purbeck innings the teams would have had the luncheon break to assess the rain (to see if it stopped or to see how badly it had affected the pitch. At the end of luncheon it might still have been raining heavilily so the game was called off around 2.45 giving Druitt ample time to catch the train.
                  Regarding that suggestion, I would just say that what we don't have any indication of, is continuous heavy rain. In fact, of the four nearby weather stations for which we have records, the only report that gives a positive indication that it was still raining after 2pm is Southampton. That says showers at intervals, not continuous rain. It says some of the showers were very heavy, but on the other hand looking at the printed version, they were using a system of superscripts to indicate strength, ranging from a 0 for lightest to 3 for heaviest. For 30 August there was no superscript, which equates to level 1.

                  It would seem strange to me if they played through the thunderstorm, waiting until the end of the lunch break to make a decision, and then decided to abandon the match even though the thunderstorm had ended, and the showers would end (if there were showers at Blandford) by about 4pm.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Michael Banks View Post
                    The game on 15th August 1887 mentions a 2.00 luncheon. Then the game on the 20th August 1889 has Blandford scoring 40-3 by luncheon. We don’t know when luncheon was taken in this game but if it was the same as in the other then 2.00 is an estimate. These days luncheon is usually at 1.00 I believe.

                    It doesn’t mention a start time but there had to be a period of pre-luncheon play which I’d estimate at least one and a half hours of play. Giving a start time of 12.30.
                    Did you notice Joshua Rogan's post on Casebook? At a meeting of the County Cricket Council at the beginning of 1888, it was decided that county matches should start at 12 pm noon (and 11 am the second day)

                    Obviously, this doesn't tell us anything about Blandford's regime, but it might show that the midday start was the general ethos.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Cricket Start Times.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	62.3 KB
ID:	589904

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                      Did you notice Joshua Rogan's post on Casebook? At a meeting of the County Cricket Council at the beginning of 1888, it was decided that county matches should start at 12 pm noon (and 11 am the second day)

                      Obviously, this doesn't tell us anything about Blandford's regime, but it might show that the midday start was the general ethos.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Cricket Start Times.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	62.3 KB
ID:	589904
                      Yes I saw that Roger. We’ve seen one game that started at 2.00 (not a Blandford game) which mentions the conditions deteriorating which might suggest a weather related issue. When the complainant raised an issue with the league committee the committee responded:

                      “When putting my case before the Committee of the League, the members met it by saying that “one could not expect that two innings could be played between two and seven o'clock;”

                      So this shows that games in that league began before 2.00, as the committee wouldn’t have their games starting at 2.00 if they themselves thought it unreasonable to expect teams complete 2 innings in the allotted time.No one would suggest just 30 minutes making a difference to the point being made so it looks like games in that particular league began at 1.00 or earlier.
                      Regards

                      Michael🔎


                      " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                        Regarding that suggestion, I would just say that what we don't have any indication of, is continuous heavy rain. In fact, of the four nearby weather stations for which we have records, the only report that gives a positive indication that it was still raining after 2pm is Southampton. That says showers at intervals, not continuous rain. It says some of the showers were very heavy, but on the other hand looking at the printed version, they were using a system of superscripts to indicate strength, ranging from a 0 for lightest to 3 for heaviest. For 30 August there was no superscript, which equates to level 1.

                        It would seem strange to me if they played through the thunderstorm, waiting until the end of the lunch break to make a decision, and then decided to abandon the match even though the thunderstorm had ended, and the showers would end (if there were showers at Blandford) by about 4pm.
                        I’d say that this scenario is reasonable (I’m not claiming as a fact though Chris)

                        Game starts at 12.00 - Purbeck get to 62 at luncheon (2pm) - It might even have started raining toward the end of the innings but lightly enough to allow the innings to be completed - During lunchtime the rain turns into a deluge leaving the pitch waterlogged (easily done in 30 minutes or an hour) - by 3pm it becomes obvious that there is no point continuing and the game is called off.

                        Make it an hour later and the game ends at 4.

                        Speculation of course.
                        Regards

                        Michael🔎


                        " When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable......is probably a little bit boring "

                        Comment


                        • In my opinion, the local train schedules would have had a big influence on start times.

                          The chief logistical challenge would be getting the visiting team to the match without forcing them to wait for several hours or be coerced into staying overnight the day before and/or the day after a match.

                          It seems to me that the train schedule from Corfe Castle (which is where most the visiting players lived) to Blandford favors a midday match--noon or maybe 1 p.m. start.

                          11 a.m. would have been out of the question unless they arrived the night before.

                          They had very limited options. The Isle of Purbeck team would have had no choice but to take the 7.42 am train, and after a delay in Wimborne, this would have put them in Blandford at 10.56 a.m..

                          The next train didn't leave Corfe Castle until 10.27 and they would have missed their connection, not arriving in Blandford until after 3 pm.


                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Corfe Castle to Wimborne Jan 89.jpg Views:	0 Size:	50.9 KB ID:	589908

                          Once in Wimborne, they have to take the 10.35 train.

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Somerset and Dorset Railway.jpg Views:	0 Size:	81.6 KB ID:	589909

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                            Did you notice Joshua Rogan's post on Casebook? At a meeting of the County Cricket Council at the beginning of 1888, it was decided that county matches should start at 12 pm noon (and 11 am the second day)

                            Obviously, this doesn't tell us anything about Blandford's regime, but it might show that the midday start was the general ethos.

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Cricket Start Times.jpg Views:	2 Size:	62.3 KB ID:	589904
                            Along the same lines, there's this chapter on "Cricket Reform" by R. H. Lyttelton, from a book entitled "Cricket" published in 1888, which discusses what time things typically happened and how long things were delayed for by things like new batsmen coming in or the pitch being rolled between innings, and proposes new rules enforcing starting times in order to reduce the number of unfinished matches:
                            https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Cri...on)/Chapter_16

                            He does indeed write as though 12 noon was a typical starting time for the first day of a match over two or three days. He's not writing about one-day matches, though.

                            The trouble is, I don't think this kind of evidence can get us very far, considering that among our meagre evidence we know that at Blandford a two-innings match could start (at least) as early as 12 or (at least) as late as 1.30pm.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
                              In my opinion, the local train schedules would have had a big influence on start times.

                              The chief logistical challenge would be getting the visiting team to the match without forcing them to wait for several hours or be coerced into staying overnight the day before and/or the day after a match.

                              It seems to me that the train schedule from Corfe Castle (which is where most the visiting players lived) to Blandford favors a midday match--noon or maybe 1 p.m. start.

                              11 a.m. would have been out of the question unless they arrived the night before.

                              They had very limited options. The Isle of Purbeck team would have had no choice but to take the 7.42 am train, and after a delay in Wimborne, this would have put them in Blandford at 10.56 a.m..

                              The next train didn't leave Corfe Castle until 10.27 and they would have missed their connection, not arriving in Blandford until after 3 pm.


                              Click image for larger version Name:	Corfe Castle to Wimborne Jan 89.jpg Views:	0 Size:	50.9 KB ID:	589908

                              Once in Wimborne, they have to take the 10.35 train.

                              Click image for larger version Name:	Somerset and Dorset Railway.jpg Views:	0 Size:	81.6 KB ID:	589909
                              That's interesting, but could they not have got the 10.27 and changed at Poole rather than Wimborne, to reach Blandford by 12.30?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                                That's interesting, but could they not have got the 10.27 and changed at Poole rather than Wimborne, to reach Blandford by 12.30?
                                Yes, it looks like they could. I was fixated on Pool Junction for some reason.

                                They leave Corfe Castle at 10.27, arrive in Pool at 11.30, depart on the 11.57 and are in Blanford at 12.30 pm. A later arrival but a shorter layover, which could have made it a more attractive option.

                                So it looks like the three possible times for arriving in Blandford on the same day would be 10.57 a.m., 12.30 pm and 3.03 pm.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X