Proof of Innocence?

[Michael Banks]

Notoriously cabs don't like going south of the river. Was it the same in 1888? Probably. Did he walk back to those insecure Blackheath lodgings?

Again, you are clutching at straws. You don’t know where cabs would or wouldn’t have gone when people needed money to live. Did he walk? Why not. Can we think of any reason why he couldn’t have?

Why ‘insecure?’ Could you tell us how have become aware of the schools security levels? Why did his lodgings need to be secure? How many would have been up and around at 4.30am? How do we know the exact location of his lodgings on the schools grounds? It might have been simplicity itself for him to have got back without being seen?

Another speculation. Druitt wasn’t a pauper. How do we know that he didn’t have a bolt hole in the East End? Or a you certain of that too?

[Gary Barnett]

Again, you are clutching at straws. You don’t know where cabs would or wouldn’t have gone when people needed money to live. Did he walk? Why not. Can we think of any reason why he couldn’t have?

Why ‘insecure?’ Could you tell us how have become aware of the schools security levels? Why did his lodgings need to be secure? How many would have been up and around at 4.30am? How do we know the exact location of his lodgings on the schools grounds? It might have been simplicity itself for him to have got back without being seen?

Another speculation. Druitt wasn’t a pauper. How do we know that he didn’t have a bolt hole in the East End? Or a you certain of that too?

In this case, of course, the cab would have started south of the river, and it would have been a relatively short journey from Waterloo to the Temple.

[Edward Stow]

I believe, from memory - and stand to be corrected as I have been known once, possibly twice, to have been in error - that Druitt's lodgings are known and weren't on the school precincts. The school was in any case a converted big house. A rather small second rate affair more akin to a modern day crammer. Not a school with extensive grounds, the playing fields of England, with purpose build teachers' accommodation like, say, Whitgift.
I have previously inspected the area where Valentine's school was located and consulted contemporary maps.

When I used the word 'insecure' I wasn't referring to the locking mechanism on the doors of the lodgings Druitt used when working at Valentine's.
I was referring to his probably - some may prefer possible, others may opt for unlikely - not having security of tenure over the summer holidays for his Blackheath lodgings. I base this on the practice at university halls of residence and other lived-in educational accommodation and because his contract as a teacher at Valentine's may well have been on a yearly basis and the summer recess was the yearly break.
His lodgings would have been not much more than a furnished room in what were known as chambers... (not Barrister's) a less extravagant version of the accommodation that Sherlock Holmes inhabited, but more salubrious than the chambers Pizer pretended to prefer to the baser type of lodging house.
Druitt wouldn't have had his own furniture - rather books, papers clothes, sports equipment. The sort of stuff he could indeed pack into a trunk at the end of each academic year.
Can I hear anyone call foul as I have painted a picture of Druitt's living accommodation which isn't based on exact factual proof?
Maybe, but as I have described is how single men of reasonable means from fairly good family background tended to live.
When not sampling the nefarious and exotic delights of Wilson's Chummery in Chiswick.

Did Druitt fork out for a bolt hole in the East End?
Who knows? But building a case on totally unsubstantiated speculation is as weak as that water that people urinate in. I would only make claims where a trail of evidence can be constructed in support. But horses for courses. This is Ripperology after all!
Druitt's only known East End connection, after years of assiduous and hopeful research, was that he subscribed a small amount of money to a philanthropic enterprise, namely the building of the People's Palace on Mile End Road. This became in due course Queen Mary College of the University of London, now Queen Mary University - one of the top Universities in the world - for which I guess the alumni should have some small morsel of gratitude for Montague's beneficence. Of which I am one.

Cabs, Hackney or of the mini variety, as Londoners can testify since time immemorial, are reluctant to cross the river. I was being ever so slightly humorous in raising the improbability of Druitt being able to get a cab from the farthest and more unfashionable end Whitechapel to Blackheath (had his school lodgings been available to him). But the red mist of anger may have obscured my attempt at mirth.
Yet within this jocular aside remains a kernel of truth. It would not have been straightforward getting a cab from Whitechapel to Blackheath. A walk back is a treck. I have walked, many years ago at night under dubious circumstances, from Greenwich via Blackheath to Poplar through the then non-existant Greenwich foot tunnel - a shorter distance than Druitt would have trod and it was a mission.

[Michael Banks]

It’s illuminating that you can use a phrase like ‘unsubstantiated speculation’ about my suggestion that Druitt might have had a bolt hole (considering that I had only suggested it as a possibility) after you’ve proceeded to speculate about Druitt’s lodgings. You can’t know what arrangements Druitt had with the school so why the pointless assumptions and speculations? He clearly wasn’t sleeping rough. He had somewhere to stay. All else is irrelevant. You’re speculating purely so that you find things to create doubt about.

Can I hear anyone call foul as I have painted a picture of Druitt's living accommodation which isn't based on exact factual proof?

Now that you come to mention it….yes I can. You can’t know what Druitt’s accommodation was like at Valentine’s because it’s not possible that you could unless you have a photograph or a written description of it. Descriptions from other schools are irrelevant .Yet again you claim that your opinion should be treated as fact.

Druitt’s accommodation isn’t relevant. He had some. That’s all that we need to know. Your building straw man arguments.

Of course we can’t prove Druitt spent time in the East End and guess what, if there was a list of people who had been to the East End from the outskirts we still wouldn’t be able to actually prove it for the vast majority of them. As far as I’m aware neither The Ten Bells or The Britannia had a visitors book. Could Druitt have gone into the East End? Yes. End of. That’s all that we need to know. Is there a possible, entirely plausible way that Druitt might have had cause to go into the East End apart from your example? Yes there is….

"The Pall Mall Gazette" of April 17th 1887 reports of a meeting held at King's Bench Walk (where Druitt had his chambers) organized and led by the Tory politician, Mr. J. G. Talbot, who was asking his fellow Oxonians to join him at Oxford House, in the East End, to provide the poor with help, guidance, entertainment and even cricket.”

Why would it have been so unlikely for Druitt, like many other men of his class, to have volunteered for something like this? Now I’m waiting for you to ask if I have a photograph of Druitt at Oxford House. Or how could he have got there wearing cricket pads and spikes?

……

Question: Could Druitt have got from Blandford to London in time to kill Mary Ann Nichols?

Answer: Absolutely, categorically, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt yes he could.

Question: Does that mean that he killed her?

Answer: Of course it doesn’t.

And there the discussion should end but it won’t. You were so desperately hoping that some eliminating evidence would surface that now that it hasn’t you just can’t bring yourself to admit it and let it go. If eliminating evidence had surfaced I’d have simply accepted the evidence in black and white and moved on. But you just can’t bring yourself to do it can you Ed? It sticks in your throat so you keep clinging on to stuff about Druitt’s bag, or cabs, or his lodgings. None of which are relevant.

Druitt cannot be eliminated on evidence at this point in time. This is what we call a FACT.

[Chris Phillips]

It’s illuminating that you can use a phrase like ‘unsubstantiated speculation’ about my suggestion that Druitt might have had a bolt hole (considering that I had only suggested it as a possibility) after you’ve proceeded to speculate about Druitt’s lodgings. You can’t know what arrangements Druitt had with the school so why the pointless assumptions and speculations. He clearly wasn’t sleeping rough. He had somewhere to stay. All else is irrelevant. You’re speculating purely so that you find things to create doubt.



Now that you come to mention it….yes I can. You can’t know what Druitt’s accommodation was like at Valentine’s because it’s not possible unless you have a photograph or a written description. Descriptions from other schools are irrelevant .Yet again you claim that your opinion should be treated as fact.

Druitt’s accommodation isn’t relevant. He had some. That’s all that we need to know. Your building straw man arguments.

Of course we can’t prove Druitt spent time in the East End and guess what, if there was a list of people who had been to the East End from the outskirts we still wouldn’t be able to actually prove it for the vast majority of them. As far as I’m aware neither The Ten Bells or The Britannia had a visitors book. Is there a possible, entirely plausible way that Druitt might have had cause to go into the East End apart from your example? Yes there is….

"The Pall Mall Gazette" of April 17th 1887 reports of a meeting held at King's Bench Walk (where Druitt had his chambers) organized and led by the Tory politician, Mr. J. G. Talbot, who was asking his fellow Oxonians to join him at Oxford House, in the East End, to provide the poor with help, guidance, entertainment and even cricket.”

Why would it have been so unlikely for Druitt, like many other men of his class, to have volunteered for something like this? Now I’m waiting for you to ask if I have a photograph of Druitt at Oxford House.

……

Question: Could Druitt have got from Blandford in time to kill Mary Ann Nichols?

Answer: Absolutely, categorically, 100% yes he could.

Question: Does that mean that he killed her?

Answer: Of course it doesn’t.

And there the discussion should end but it won’t. You were so hoping that some eliminating evidence would surface that now that it hasn’t you just can’t bring yourself to admit it and let it go. If eliminating evidence had surfaced I’d have simply accepted the evidence in black and white and moved on. But you just can’t bring yourself to do it can you Ed? It sticks in your throat so you keep clinging on to stuff about Druitt’s bag, or cabs, or his lodgings. None of which are relevant.

Druitt cannot be eliminated on evidence at this point in time.

No, he can't be eliminated. This new discovery doesn't provide an alibi, because it would have been possible for him to get to London that night.

But as I've been saying all along, the fact that he was in Dorset the day before the murder (as well as the day after) is important in itself. For me, it makes it very unlikely that he in London on the day of the murder (though no doubt opinions about that will differ). For that reason I think it is an important discovery.

The title of the thread may be asking a question about proof of innocence. But in the absence of proof, people are entitled to discuss what it tells us about probability as well. It's entirely appropriate that that part of the discussion should continue.

[Michael Banks]

No, he can't be eliminated. This new discovery doesn't provide an alibi, because it would have been possible for him to get to London that night.

But as I've been saying all along, the fact that he was in Dorset the day before the murder (as well as the day after) is important in itself. For me, it makes it very unlikely that he in London on the day of the murder (though no doubt opinions about that will differ). For that reason I think it is an important discovery.

The title of the thread may be asking a question about proof of innocence. But in the absence of proof, people are entitled to discuss what it tells us about probability as well. It's entirely appropriate that that part of the discussion should continue.

And that’s fine. Personally I don’t think it’s even remotely unlikely but as you’ve said, others might disagree. I can’t see why a man catching a train in ample time is so ‘out there?’ Why would Peter Sutcliffe have driven all the way to a red light area when there would have been one closer to his house? Would that have made him unlikely? Especially as `Druitt might have had another reason for returning to London for all that we know. But what I really don’t get is talk of things like his cricket bag? How can a cricket bag be raised to a level where it would have been an issue?

[Chris Phillips]

And that’s fine. Personally I don’t think it’s even remotely unlikely but as you’ve said, others might disagree. I can’t see why a man catching a train in ample time is so ‘out there?’ Why would Peter Sutcliffe have driven all the way to a red light area when there would have been one closer to his house? Would that have made him unlikely? Especially as `Druitt might have had another reason for returning to London for all that we know. But what I really don’t get is talk of things like his cricket bag? How can a cricket bag be raised to a level where it would have been an issue?

My reason is just the simple statistical argument I explained before,

[Michael Banks]

My reason is just the simple statistical argument I explained before,

I understand that Chris.

[Gary Barnett]

I believe, from memory - and stand to be corrected as I have been known once, possibly twice, to have been in error - that Druitt's lodgings are known and weren't on the school precincts. The school was in any case a converted big house. A rather small second rate affair more akin to a modern day crammer. Not a school with extensive grounds, the playing fields of England, with purpose build teachers' accommodation like, say, Whitgift.
I have previously inspected the area where Valentine's school was located and consulted contemporary maps.

When I used the word 'insecure' I wasn't referring to the locking mechanism on the doors of the lodgings Druitt used when working at Valentine's.
I was referring to his probably - some may prefer possible, others may opt for unlikely - not having security of tenure over the summer holidays for his Blackheath lodgings. I base this on the practice at university halls of residence and other lived-in educational accommodation and because his contract as a teacher at Valentine's may well have been on a yearly basis and the summer recess was the yearly break.
His lodgings would have been not much more than a furnished room in what were known as chambers... (not Barrister's) a less extravagant version of the accommodation that Sherlock Holmes inhabited, but more salubrious than the chambers Pizer pretended to prefer to the baser type of lodging house.
Druitt wouldn't have had his own furniture - rather books, papers clothes, sports equipment. The sort of stuff he could indeed pack into a trunk at the end of each academic year.
Can I hear anyone call foul as I have painted a picture of Druitt's living accommodation which isn't based on exact factual proof?
Maybe, but as I have described is how single men of reasonable means from fairly good family background tended to live.
When not sampling the nefarious and exotic delights of Wilson's Chummery in Chiswick.

Did Druitt fork out for a bolt hole in the East End?
Who knows? But building a case on totally unsubstantiated speculation is as weak as that water that people urinate in. I would only make claims where a trail of evidence can be constructed in support. But horses for courses. This is Ripperology after all!
Druitt's only known East End connection, after years of assiduous and hopeful research, was that he subscribed a small amount of money to a philanthropic enterprise, namely the building of the People's Palace on Mile End Road. This became in due course Queen Mary College of the University of London, now Queen Mary University - one of the top Universities in the world - for which I guess the alumni should have some small morsel of gratitude for Montague's beneficence. Of which I am one.

Cabs, Hackney or of the mini variety, as Londoners can testify since time immemorial, are reluctant to cross the river. I was being ever so slightly humorous in raising the improbability of Druitt being able to get a cab from the farthest and more unfashionable end Whitechapel to Blackheath (had his school lodgings been available to him). But the red mist of anger may have obscured my attempt at mirth.
Yet within this jocular aside remains a kernel of truth. It would not have been straightforward getting a cab from Whitechapel to Blackheath. A walk back is a treck. I have walked, many years ago at night under dubious circumstances, from Greenwich via Blackheath to Poplar through the then non-existant Greenwich foot tunnel - a shorter distance than Druitt would have trod and it was a mission.

I must have walked from the Strand to Whitechapel dozens of times.

[Edward Stow]

But how many times Gary from Whitechapel to the Strand?
It is of course a much more straightforward forward walk than Whitechapel to Blackheath.
And furthermore there is no bridge to cross and so the route is more accessible to hackney carriages.
However, were his Barrister's Chambers accessible for him to doss down in, in the wee small hours of the morning. Druitt, a minor, junior barrister in a well populated Chambers? I suspect not... but I stand yo be corrected.

[Gary Barnett]

But how many times Gary from Whitechapel to the Strand?
It is of course a much more straightforward forward walk than Whitechapel to Blackheath.
And furthermore there is no bridge to cross and so the route is more accessible to hackney carriages.
However, were his Barrister's Chambers accessible for him to doss down in, in the wee small hours of the morning. Druitt, a minor, junior barrister in a well populated Chambers? I suspect not... but I stand yo be corrected.

I can’t remember if I ever did it in that direction, but then I worked in the West End for 30-something years so my walks were generally W to E.

Who would have questioned Druitt’s seniority if he’d turned up at the Temple late at night - the gatekeeper? I don’t think those chambers were just 9-5 offices, some were residences. Dropping his bag off in Kings Bench Walk is hardly beyond the realms of possibility.

And as for why he might have gravitated towards Whitechapel rather than seeking out a victim near Waterloo, perhaps he was inspired by press reports of an earlier murder in Whitechapel. The one that had taken place a few weeks before and may well have been committed by a Vicious Blind Beggar.

[Trevor Marriott]

I can’t remember if I ever did it in that direction, but then I worked in the West End for 30-something years so my walks were generally W to E.

Who would have questioned Druitt’s seniority if he’d turned up at the Temple late at night - the gatekeeper? I don’t think those chambers were just 9-5 offices, some were residences. Dropping his bag off in Kings Bench Walk is hardly beyond the realms of possibility.

And as for why he might have gravitated towards Whitechapel rather than seeking out a victim near Waterloo, perhaps he was inspired by press reports of an earlier murder in Whitechapel. The one that had taken place a few weeks before and may well have been committed by a Vicious Blind Beggar.

Nothing but conjecture-ripperology is rife with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

along with a constant barrage of "what if`s" "I think" "maybe`s" "Could have`s" and "Perhaps"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael Banks]

Nothing but conjecture-ripperology is rife with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

along with a constant barrage of "what if`s" "I think" "maybe`s" "Could have`s" and "Perhaps"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

In the absence of solid evidence conjecture is unavoidable Trevor. Why should conjecture annoy you?

[Michael Banks]

I can’t remember if I ever did it in that direction, but then I worked in the West End for 30-something years so my walks were generally W to E.

Who would have questioned Druitt’s seniority if he’d turned up at the Temple late at night - the gatekeeper? I don’t think those chambers were just 9-5 offices, some were residences. Dropping his bag off in Kings Bench Walk is hardly beyond the realms of possibility.

And as for why he might have gravitated towards Whitechapel rather than seeking out a victim near Waterloo, perhaps he was inspired by press reports of an earlier murder in Whitechapel. The one that had taken place a few weeks before and may well have been committed by a Vicious Blind Beggar.

I believe that I’ve read somewhere that those chambers did have living quarters Gary so he had chambers and his quarters at the school but would it have been impossible or unlikely the he might just have booked into a hotel? There can have been nothing suspicious for anyone at reception with someone arriving late evening after a train journey. And who would pay any particular attention to him returning in the early hours. Another rich bloke with too much time on his hands out at some gambling club all night.

Druitt had somewhere to stay in London.

[Caroline Brown]

Morning All,

I would tend to go along with what Ed said about the summer holidays. If university students in halls of residence and boarding school pupils traditionally have to take all their belongings back home for the long summer break, I don't see why the same would not have applied to live-in school masters, including Druitt. But as everyone seems to acknowledge, it's another matter of weighing up possibilities and probabilities in the absence of facts.

I did also wonder when, why and how Druitt - if he was the ripper - decided on Whitechapel, specifically, as his hunting ground. But serial killers can be extremely picky about location, as we know from the example of Colin Ireland, and once their focus is on one place, they may only feel secure and anonymous enough to do their thing there, where they are most unlikely to bump into anyone who knows them. If luck is with them and they get away with one murder in their chosen location, it could become a ritual to repeat the process and stick with what worked before.

That's why I think arguments about Druitt being able to take his pick of similar victims around Waterloo [or even Blandford Forum - are you with us, Trev?] are ultimately unhelpful. For whatever reason, we know the killer selected his prey from the same few streets, even when those streets became red hot, and his feet worked well enough if he'd been willing to shift further afield. That tells us nothing about where he had other business to conduct when he didn't have the luxury to be out on the prowl. Were there no hotels or inns within easy walking distance, where anyone of Druitt's means could have secured a room for the night and a late key - and used a false name to book in, if he was up to anything dodgy, like going with unfortunates or rent boys? Where there's a willy and all that...

At least Druitt had plenty of spare time in August, down in Dorset, with no wife or kids, or even apparently a girlfriend, needing to know where he was or what he was doing on any particular day or night. Ordinary working men with large families to support, who were putting in very long working weeks throughout the year, were in a very different situation, even if they found themselves surrounded by their ideal victim type.

Going back to the cricket match on 30th August, I can't see why it would not have started as early as possible, considering the awful weather that summer, and the rain on 29th. Get as far into the game as possible, because the heavens were likely to open at any time and interfere with play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF8hBCy--kE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoEUrkWyT1M

Happy weekend all.

Love,

Caz
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