Proof of Innocence?

[R. J. Palmer]

That's very interesting. Like you, I'm not finding a middle name for either of them, despite copious records turning up. I suspect they didn't have middle names, and that the "J" in that report is a mistake (perhaps through confusion with Montague?).

Of course it raises the possibility that a similar mistake could have been made in 1888. A Druittist could point out that while Wimborne is closer to Blandford than Christchurch is, they are roughly equidistant from the Isle of Purbeck...

Yes, I thought that as well--conceivably, the 1889 footballer could have been a 'slip' for M.J.Druitt, the better known Dorset athlete.

It looks like this Christchurch player was the older brother Melville. There is an article from 1889 stating that he was the sub-captain of the Christchurch and Mudeford team. For what it is worth, in the 1890s he was a member of the Primrose League and some of the Isle of Purbeck crowd were also members, though I assume this would have been a different chapter.

[Christer Holmgren]

Hi Michael -- I did a bit of poking around, and Christer's 6% suicide rate is apparently based on a study by David Lester and John White (the precise number was 6.2%).

But I noticed something interesting in their abstract:


"In a sample of 483 serial killers, 6.2% were documented to have committed suicide. Those who committed suicide were found to come from more dysfunctional homes characterized by more psychiatric disturbance in the parents. [note: Druitt's mother was institutionalized for insanity]. The sexual acts involved in the murders by the suicides seemed to be more deviant in some aspects, such as committing more bizarre sexual acts or more often taping the murder."

So in other words, the more freakishly sexual the murders were, the more likely the murderer was to commit suicide, which changes things considerably. Lack of evidence of direct sexual interference aside, one might argue that the Ripper murders were "off the charts" when it came to sexual deviancy, so maybe Macnaghten was not so off-the-mark to think the murderer may have tossed himself in the Thames shortly after the perversions of Miller's Court.

A few more relevant points:

1. 6.2% is not a small number. It is a BIG number. I just checked -- the suicide rate in Sweden hovers at 0.12%, while the rate in my own deeply dysfunctional country is a bit higher at around 0.14% and climbing. Thus, roughly speaking, "serialists" are nearly FIFTY TIMES more likely to commit suicide than the general population, which is significant and cannot be seen as a white flag.

2. Lester and White don't tell us how many others TRIED to commit suicide, but failed. This cuts both ways. If one is incarcerated, the rate would presumably go up due to despair, but might also be lower than expected because inmates share cells with other inmates and there is often a 'suicide' watch or at least frequent walkthroughs as well as access to medical treatment.

3. Studies have linked clinical depression with violent behavior. I don’t see any reason to think a narcissist couldn’t also be suicidal—I think that assumption is too simplistic; the behavior is widely seen as overcompensation for low self-esteem. Indeed, I found the following abstract: "The relationship of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) to suicidal behavior is understudied. The modest body of existing research suggests that NPD is protective against non-fatal suicide attempts, but is associated with high lethality attempts." In other words, when they attempt suicide, they succeed!

4. Here is a biggy. Lester and White’s statistic of 6.2% is based on SOLVED CASES. This is unavoidable because they can only study cases where the murderer was captured or at least identified. But that fact alone may skew the results and create a bias and an untrustworthy number. What about the unsolved cases? Theoretically, a large swath of the unsolved murders may have involved suicides who were never captured because they had killed themselves and thus stayed below the radar—and this could especially be true because of the link between clinical depression and violence. Indeed, in recent memory alone, advances in DNA have solved three cases of “serial” homicide, having successfully traced the murders back to someone who had committed suicide:


In 2021 in France, a policeman committed suicide when the net began to close --advances in DNA testing showed that years earlier he had murdered several young girls.

This year, using advances in DNA testing, three murders in Oregon dating back to the 1980s were traced to a man who had committed suicide in jail in 1988.

There was a similar case recently reported in Colorado. "Suspect Joe Michael Ervin killed himself in 1981 after being arrested in the shooting death of Aurora police officer." DNA tests have since linked Ervin to the previously unsolved murders of four women.


Thus, Christer might well be jumping the gun. As DNA testing techniques get better, Lester and White's estimate of 6.2% might turn out to be far too low.

Just a few remarks, R J.

"Christers 6 % suicide rate" is in fact David Andersens 6 % suicide rate. As I pointed out, it was him not me, who provided the material. I have not checked to what degree the number is relevant and so it cannot possibly be "my" claim.

I find the claim that more "freakish sexual acts" would be more likely to lead to suicides a bit unexpected, and to be honest, I don´t know what is described as "sexual acts". Does it entail Cottinghams cutting women up? Is that a "sexual act"? Is Gary Ridgways sex with his victims his only sexual act, or does it involve the strangulations too?

Whichever, we both know, you and me, that the most prolific sexual serial killers we know of did not commit suicide. If that means that we should regard the "sexual acts" involved in their undertakings as uncontroversial, I am amazed.

What examples of sexual serial killers do can you provide where the culprit killed himself. It would be interesting to hear. Clearly, some do. But who?

You are correct in saying that 6,2 per cent is not a small number. And I am correct in saying that 93,8 is a much, much, much larger one!

You do not see why a narcissist could not be depressed and suicidal. Well, I am not saying that they cannot be. What I am saying is that they are not statistically likely to kill themselves over it.

Finally, you are saying that the material is built on solved cases, meaning that we do not know if heaps of the unsolved cases are the work of serial killers who commit suicide. Which is of course true. On the other hand, we are equally uncertain about whether or not the uncaught ones are LESS likely to commit suicide than the ones incarcerated. It goes without saying that any serial killer who would have loved to go on killing but who is caught and jailed, is a person who is deprived of something he very much likes to do/feels compelled to do etcetera. The suggestion that this is what causes a minor fraction of serial killers to commit suicide sounds very compelling to me. In which case the uncaught ones are much unlikelier to do away with themselves.

Countering that, you say that three cases are at hand where DNA has revealed serial killers who have commited suicide. That is interesting, but it comes with a "careful!" label: did these people know or suspect that they would get nailed? And be deprived of their killings?

And of course, what you did not remember to tell us is that there are also examples of serial killers who were nailed by DNA and who had not committed suicide, like de Angelo - who was NOT aware that the police were closing in on him.

We can discuss the finer points for decades, I am sure. But I prefer not to loose sight of the less fine point that an established overwhelming majority of sexual serial killers will not commit suicide, meaning that Druitt is an exception to that rule if he was the killer.

[Christer Holmgren]

That's a very good point. Statistical inference is a slippery thing.

And equally, suicides are roughly 50 times more likely to be serial murderers than the general population. (One can't always make that statistical equivalence, but in this case the numbers justify it.)

As has been pointed out, 93,8 per cent is very much more than 6,2 per cent. Plus we need to know how many of the examples that represent killers who have been jailed for life or who are on death row, which reasonably is an incentive for suicide. This is why I mention the known cases of prolific serial killers. Do we know of ANY such case, where the killer commited suicide? I cannot think of any such case myself.

Statistics themselves are of course never slippery. But statistical inference may be. But to my mind, it would be more of a slip-up to regard the suicide factor as somehow irrelevant in the weighing up of Druitt.

[Chris Phillips]

As has been pointed out, 93,8 per cent is very much more than 6,2 per cent. Plus we need to know how many of the examples that represent killers who have been jailed for life or who are on death row, which reasonably is an incentive for suicide. This is why I mention the known cases of prolific serial killers. Do we know of ANY such case, where the killer commited suicide? I cannot think of any such case myself.

Statistics themselves are of course never slippery. But statistical inference may be. But to my mind, it would be more of a slip-up to regard the suicide factor as somehow irrelevant in the weighing up of Druitt.

The point is simply that - on the figures you quoted - someone who committed suicide is more likely to be a serial killer than someone who didn't, not less likely.

[Gary Barnett]

That's very interesting. Like you, I'm not finding a middle name for either of them, despite copious records turning up. I suspect they didn't have middle names, and that the "J" in that report is a mistake (perhaps through confusion with Montague?).

Of course it raises the possibility that a similar mistake could have been made in 1888. A Druittist could point out that while Wimborne is closer to Blandford than Christchurch is, they are roughly equidistant from the Isle of Purbeck...

But then we could point out that Wimborne was in the same county as Blandford and Purbeck, Christchurch wasn’t.

[Edward Stow]

I wonder what the suicide rate was for exposed homosexuals in the late19th century.

[Edward Stow]

A review of Druitt's cricketing - scores, teams and teammates will provide a more accurate picture.
When matches started...
As more newspapers are included online no doubt more information will come to light.
And of course all train timetables.

[Caroline Brown]

Jonathan's reaction would certainly suggest people have been interpreting it as a knockout blow, but with one exception I really don't think they have.

Nonetheless, to my mind, taking into account what else we know about his situation, if Druitt was in Dorset on 30 August and 1 September, I think it's very unlikely he was in London on 31 August.

For me it would depend entirely on knowing the finer details of the timing issues. As Steve suggested, and I did previously, if we allow for the possibility that Druitt was the ripper, he'd have had the motivation to travel up to his chosen hunting ground and back whenever he had the urge.

If Mister Brown was determined to take a day off work mid-week, to get the coach up from Somerset to Hammersmith, to walk by the Thames with his future Mrs Brown for just two or three hours, before returning to the West country, so too could the ripper have been drawn like a magnet to Whitechapel between two match days. What the ripper did there was more unlikely than where he may have travelled from.

I think there are better reasons to find Druitt an unlikely suspect.

Love,

Caz
X

[Edward Stow]

When one considers the research that has gone into the Horse slaughter business, meat deliveries to and from Broad Street, a carman's duties, pay, hours of work, cat's meat, Victorian clocks, blood clotting, body temperatures, school records etc etc etc for a certain suspect, to attempt to butress or pull down the theory, it is a bit poor that with Druitt - a supposedly long established, 'official' suspect has vast untapped areas which will surely yield a lot more information.
Local newspapers - maybe undigitised - for sports and social notices, cricket club records (the whole operation of local cricket matches), court records in local archives, trains and so forth.
I guess as this information can only clear him, proponents of Druitt as the Ripper won't go there and sceptics haven't been motivated, as they are with certain other suspects.

[Chris Phillips]

When one considers the research that has gone into the Horse slaughter business, meat deliveries to and from Broad Street, a carman's duties, pay, hours of work, cat's meat, Victorian clocks, blood clotting, body temperatures, school records etc etc etc for a certain suspect, to attempt to butress or pull down the theory, it is a bit poor that with Druitt - a supposedly long established, 'official' suspect has vast untapped areas which will surely yield a lot more information.
Local newspapers - maybe undigitised - for sports and social notices, cricket club records (the whole operation of local cricket matches), court records in local archives, trains and so forth.
I guess as this information can only clear him, proponents of Druitt as the Ripper won't go there and sceptics haven't been motivated, as they are with certain other suspects.

On the contrary, a huge amount of research has been done into newspaper references to Druitt over the years by a number of researchers, from the 1970s onwards. R.J. Palmer indicated on the first page of this thread that he had already been aware of a report of this match, but had thought it was played at a different date.

[Caroline Brown]

His office - Barrister's Chambers- are not really of any use to him here.
There is no real similarity between hurriedly travelling back like to London to commit a first murder in an unfamiliar part of town, to killing while walking across streets regularly traversed, with familiarity and the comfort and planning that brings or allows.

Regarding the suspicions of Druitt's family - I would suggest that only occured after his dismissal, suicide and letter. Which in my view was all about his homosexuality bring exposed
But I any case the timing of the family suspicion must date from then, and the correlation between his cricket matches and the murders wouldn't have probably been readily apparent.

If Druitt was the ripper, he'd have made himself as familiar with that part of town as he needed to be. He was an intelligent chap. And he wouldn't have hung about the scene waiting for Robert Paul to find him near his victim, just for the thrill of it!

Having said that, I disagree with you that the family would not have tried to find out what Druitt was doing and where he was, when the murders were committed. If they found out about the two cricket matches, either side of the Buck's Row murder, they would surely have felt some reassurance that he was innocent despite their suspicions - unless of course they had uncovered evidence too strong to deny.

Love,

Caz
X

[Edward Stow]

in case no one responds to the second instalment of Mrs Brown's boy, the equivalence would be Mr Brown traveling to East Street Market in Walworth to hopefully meet some future Mrs Brown, when the barely knew each other and at a place neither had been before, on the spur of the moment. Less prosaic.

[Edward Stow]

Chris
That RJP's error was not noticed by anyone else illustrates the paucity of study. And newspapers - with nearly all reliance being placed on online sources - is very one dimensional... and as you say with reference to Druitt. The background research issues I listed were not specifically under the name of a suspect but matters allied or associated with him - the background colour.

[Chris Phillips]

Chris
That RJP's error was not noticed by anyone else illustrates the paucity of study. And newspapers - with nearly all reliance being placed on online sources - is very one dimensional... and as you say with reference to Druitt. The background research issues I listed were not specifically under the name of a suspect but matters allied or associated with him - the background colour.

You need to acquaint yourself better with the history of the subject.

As I pointed out, there has been a huge amount of research into newspaper information on Druitt, from the 1970s onwards, As you know, there were no "online sources" then,

To give just one example - on this page you can read a tribute to a researcher named Eric F. Hermes (who is now deceased), about whom I was originally told by John Ruffels (someone else who did a tremendous amount of research on Druitt when research used to be much more arduous than typing and clicking):

https://www.magickalmind.com/dorian/rippermain.html

The Meticulous Researcher: Like many Ripperologists, Hermes initially seemed hesitant to name his suspect. My man did extensive research on all of the serious subjects. He knew more about Montague John Druitt than Druitt had probably ever gleaned about himself. He knew what railroad ticket Druitt had in his pocket when, after 7 weeks, his body was finally fished out of the Thames. He knew about the fancy party in Wimborne where Druitt improbably was listed as a guest while his body most likely mouldered at the river's bottom. One problem was that Druitt's name appeared in a sportspaper (he played cricket) the day after one of the nights of carnage. Is this likely? Who knows?
...
The files multiply: One problem with research is that it begets more research. The increase is exponential. A file quickly turns into a filing cabinet. Hermes had amassed so much data that he probably would need to have published a 20 volume encyclopedia! The man has always had too much research integrity to select only the facts which fit his theory. ...

[Gary Barnett]

When one considers the research that has gone into the Horse slaughter business, meat deliveries to and from Broad Street, a carman's duties, pay, hours of work, cat's meat, Victorian clocks, blood clotting, body temperatures, school records etc etc etc for a certain suspect, to attempt to butress or pull down the theory, it is a bit poor that with Druitt - a supposedly long established, 'official' suspect has vast untapped areas which will surely yield a lot more information.
Local newspapers - maybe undigitised - for sports and social notices, cricket club records (the whole operation of local cricket matches), court records in local archives, trains and so forth.
I guess as this information can only clear him, proponents of Druitt as the Ripper won't go there and sceptics haven't been motivated, as they are with certain other suspects.

Most of the work on horse slaughtering etc was done independently of any JTR considerations. Some of it tends to support your theory some doesn’t.

Druitt has never interested me. The Dorset connection has stirred a bit of curiosity, but not a lot.