William Bury

[Adam_Douglas]

I concur. I figured it to be either a half hour walk or perhaps a little more for someone used to walking....unlike some of us...like Sam Flynn.

I don't have an issue with the distance,Adam...nor the location that the theoretical Bury-as-Ripper decided to strike was not the most immediate area containing prostitutes.

Good points,my friend.

And we know that Bury had a horse and cart and was regularly out all night... sleeping off the effects of a rough drinking session at the stable, so to me the timing and location all fits. Also that the murders in London stopped when he moved North.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi How,

I suppose Sam's argument is a good one,but dependent on the unlikeliness of Bury being able to make a half hour walk ( a man walking at 5 miles an hour will walk 2 1/2 miles in 30 minutes). I think he could.

My point had more to do with the fact that one could walk a few blocks in that part of town and be in a totally different area. To travel two and a half miles from or to Whitechapel was to pass through an area that housed - what? - over a hundred thousand people. He might as well have been in another country.

I think its also a good idea ( because its my idea,of course ) that a man like Bury...if not necessarily Bury...would want to go fishing where there are more fish...hence the Spitalfields/Whitechapel area.

There were more prostitutes in Bow and Poplar than there were in the Ripper's killing-fields, though. If Bury wanted (arguably more) fruitful fishing grounds, he could have dropped his line closer to home and still remained anonymous, such was the population density of the East End.

To have strayed 2.5 miles from home in order to kill was not only dangerous - necessitating, as it would, being out on the open road for half an hour or more after a murder - but totally unnecessary.

[Sam Flynn]

And we know that Bury had a horse and cart and was regularly out all night... sleeping off the effects of a rough drinking session at the stable

That's only speculation, I'm afraid, Adam. There is no evidence that he was out all night on a regular basis, and even then what's to say that he didn't frequent the pubs in Bromley itself? We certainly don't know where Bury was on the nights of the Ripper murders, and in point of fact we don't even know that he was in London on those dates. Additionally, and as far as I can recall, there is no evidence that he made a habit of "sleeping it off" in a stable either.

Also that the murders in London stopped when he moved North.

The Ripper murders seem to have stopped some three months before he went North, which is hardly knife-edge (pardon pun) timing; furthermore, the Ripper may have continued long after Bury had been hanged.

[Adam_Douglas]

That's only speculation, I'm afraid, Adam. There is no evidence that he was out all night on a regular basis, and even then what's to say that he didn't frequent the pubs in Bromley itself? We certainly don't know where Bury was on the nights of the Ripper murders, and in point of fact we don't even know that he was in London on those dates. Additionally, and as far as I can recall, there is no evidence that he made a habit of "sleeping it off" in a stable either.

We dont know certainly where ANYONE was 130 years ago on a given night I would wager.

What we do know is that Bury lived in East London, that he was a murderer who killed with a knife, that he had the Jack the Ripper crimes on his mind, and that his wife gave statements which were recorded by first hand sources that her husband often stayed out all night (so I must contradict you on that point).

Given that he lived in London and worked in London, and given his class and situation, it is impossible to imagine he was not within striking range of each killing.

We cannot place him with a knife in hand kneeling over the corpose, of course; but he is somewhat closer than most other suspects.

[Sam Flynn]

What we do know is that Bury lived in East London, that he was a murderer who killed with a knife, that he had the Jack the Ripper crimes on his mind

With respect, we don't know that. What we have is a story that Bury seemed to get twitchy in the presence of a man reading a report about the Ripper in a Dundee pub. That may have had more to do with the fact that Bury knew his wife was in a somewhat mangled condition back at the flat, than any preoccupation with the Ripper.

his wife gave statements which were recorded by first hand sources that her husband often stayed out all night (so I must contradict you on that point).

My main quibble was with the idea that Bury made a habit of "sleeping off" a night's heavy drinking in a stable - for which I can't recall a primary source. Not that there are that many first-hand sources, of course. Unfortunately, such facts as exist are indifferently referenced in books on the subject, which makes it difficult to tell fact from reconstruction.

We cannot place him with a knife in hand kneeling over the corpose, of course; but he is somewhat closer than most other suspects.

True, Adam - but the evidence is patchy, and authors are wont to fill the gaps with ideas of their own. We need to be ultra-careful with statements like "there's evidence Bury did X", or "Bury was a proven Y", when such "evidence" or "proof" might only have been speculation to start with.

This is especially dangerous where a given author has already made up their mind that Bury must have been the Ripper.

[Adam_Douglas]

1 - When I say that Bury had the Ripper crimes on his mind I mean the graffiti on the door of his flat in Dundee. It could not have been written by anyone after his wife's murder (as after the murder was discovered the door was guarded by police), and his wife could not write (and had been dead some days before the killing was discovered)... the only credible explanation is that Bury wrote himself. It does not mean he was guilty, but it is certainly evidence that the crimes of Jack the Ripper weighed heavily upon him.

2 - It is true we dont know he slept in a stable, but we do have evidence that he often stayed out all night, and that he was a heavy drinker. It is enough to say that if he stayed out all night on the night of the murders this would have fitted in with his general pattern of behaviour.

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I dont think I have made unreasoanable assumptions, and I have not supported many of the leaps of logic made by MacPherson... my argument remains that Bury was a murderer who used a knife, who lived in East London when the killings took place and left around the time they ended, who fitted some of the contemporary witness reports.

Again, there is and probably never will be any definite link to him and the killings ad certainly none has been shown so far - but while some believe in Masonic conspiracies or harmless cricketers or any Jew that they can be found about the time being guilty, I find Bury a far stronger candiate for these awful crimes.

A Murderer who used a knife
A short, dark, man with a moustache
A man who wrote on his own door "Jack the Ripper lives here" after strangling his wife and stabbing the dead body with a knife
A violent drunkard who lived in East London at the time of the killings and moved away after

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I will take this as evidence above a junk dealers "found" diary or Walter Sickert's paintings being spooky, anyday.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Adam,

1 - When I say that Bury had the Ripper crimes on his mind I mean the graffiti on the door of his flat in Dundee... the only credible explanation is that Bury wrote himself. It does not mean he was guilty, but it is certainly evidence that the crimes of Jack the Ripper weighed heavily upon him.

Or he half-heartedly considered "framing" Jack the Ripper for his wife's murder? To my mind, the graffiti certainly isn't evidence that the crimes of Jack the Ripper weighed heavily upon him.

2 - It is true we dont know he slept in a stable, but we do have evidence that he often stayed out all night, and that he was a heavy drinker.

So were many in the East End and, lest we not forget, there were plenty of pubs in Bromley-by-Bow in which this particular drunk might have fed his habit.

my argument remains that Bury was a murderer who used a knife, who lived in East London when the killings took place and left around the time they ended.

He strangled his wife, subjected her to a few superficial stabs and one cut of a few inches in extent, after having left East London nearly three months after the Kelly murder. I'm not gainsaying you, just stating the facts with an appropriate degree of perspective - which is important. It's relatively easy to perceive a match if we look at the generality, but when we zoom in on the specifics it all starts to look a bit tenuous.

You're quite right in believing him a more likely suspect than some, but when we look at precisely what Bury did - as well as where, how and when he did it - the case against him is less than convincing.

[Adam_Douglas]

Hi Adam,Or he half-heartedly considered "framing" Jack the Ripper for his wife's murder? To my mind, the graffiti certainly isn't evidence that the crimes of Jack the Ripper weighed heavily upon him.So were many in the East End and, lest we not forget, there were plenty of pubs in Bromley-by-Bow in which this particular drunk might have fed his habit.He strangled his wife, subjected her to a few superficial stabs and one cut of a few inches in extent, after having left East London nearly three months after the Kelly murder. I'm not gainsaying you, just stating the facts with an appropriate degree of perspective - which is important. It's relatively easy to perceive a match if we look at the generality, but when we zoom in on the specifics it all starts to look a bit tenuous.

You're quite right in believing him a more likely suspect than some, but when we look at precisely what Bury did - as well as where, how and when he did it - the case against him is less than convincing.

Sam, you can look at everything two ways of course.

I admit that there is no strong evidence to link Bury to the murders.

But the questions I ask myself are:

How any oher men do we know of who we can place in East London at the time of the murders, who match the best "short, stout, blotchy face, moustache" descriptions of the killer, who have a proven record of violence against women, who is known to have moved away at the same time the killings ended, who is known to have killed a woman and then mutilated the body with a knife, who wrote "Jack the Ripper" on his own door?

The evidence against ANY suspect after this length of time will be weak and asily shaken, and we will never know the truth, but I think we can say defintely:

Bury had the opportunity to commit these murders

Bury was a murderer

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Even those two facts alone make him a stronger candidate than most of the candidates that are thrown about (including Maybrick, Druitt, Sickert, etc)

[Currerbell]

I read for the first time about this suspect last night in the 'Mammoth Book of JTR', a chapter written by William Beadle, and he does seem a pretty good suspect that deserves more attention...

I did get quite convinced from all the evidence, if you can call it that, or how he met a lot of the known facts of the case as discussed below.

It says Ellen was fairly rich with something around 20k in todays money, now thats an awful lot so if its true, and I know Bury took a lot of it for drink etc, but I believe everything a woman owned became the property of her husband upon marriage, so the dosh would be his...why would he carry on 'working' if they had all that money?

[SirRobertAnderson]

Hi Adam,Or he half-heartedly considered "framing" Jack the Ripper for his wife's murder?

The messages, or more accurately the facsimiles we have of the messages, would imply to me "Jack lives here" as opposed to "Jack struck here".


Jack the Ripper
is at the back
of this door.

Jack
Ripper
is in this
seller

[Currerbell]

Im surprised they werent rubbed off the wall a la Galston St incase it provoked fear in the people of Dundee...

[Howard Brown]

Part One of Two

Hot off the local press...in two parts.

Dundee Courier & Argus
February 12, 1889
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[Howard Brown]

Part Two Of Two

[Howard Brown]

I've made a mental note of returning to this thread in the immediate future to post up other articles on Bury. I posted the Dundee article because I felt it would be the one others would want to read first.

[Howard Brown]

In the new A to Z, the authors mention some of the newspaper articles which mentioned Bury's links to Whitechapel. Whether verifiable or not..here's one more from Scotland.
Apparently, someone from the Aberdeen newspaper learned what the contemporary police belief was, in London,towards him as a serious suspect.

Aberdeen Weekly Journal
February 14, 1889
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