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Grainger and Jabez Balfour

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  • Ta Phil, I mentioned the death in an earlier post.
    Just in case anyone missed it, Sgt James left the force (according to a colleague at the Old Bailey trial) in 1896, the year of his second marriage.
    In 1911 he is listed in Westminster Hospital as an 'ex policeman' born in Gloucestershire, and in 1891 he is listed as a detective police sergeant.

    I wonder if the attack by 'Hall' (I wonder?!) contributed towards James' death at all? He was obviously released from prison to go to hospital as he originally got 20 years penal servitude.

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    • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
      Hello Debs,

      I know we have spoken of co-incidence before.. but I note that the attack from William James was upon one Dorcas Pizer.

      Any relation to John Pizer one wonders?

      kindly

      Phil

      I don't know. Did John Pizer have any relations from Wiltshire? That is where Dorcas and Laura Beth (James' second wife) and their family originally came from.

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      • In this reporting of the 1903 case from Lloyd's Oct 11th 1903, Le Grand is mentioned.
        Thomas Catlin, editor of Lloyd's was subsequently involved in legal proceedings over some aspects of this Lloyd's Oct 11th story.

        james 1.JPG

        james 2.JPG

        james 3.JPG

        james 4.JPG

        james 5.JPG

        james 6.JPG

        james 7.JPG

        james 8.JPG

        james 9.JPG

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        • Excellent work Deb and Rob

          There still seems to be a discrepancy between the initial description of Le Grande in Portland and the later one at Parkhurst

          Le Grande doesn't seem to be thought of as a candidate for the Ripper in the second description of an apparently respectable man who was an exemplary prisoner

          It sounds as if Balfour doesn't realise they are the same man for some reason

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          • Thanks, Nemo.
            Yeah, I wondered if Jabez realised they were the same man too.

            Sgt. James own story is fascinating in itself. I wonder why he got 20 years for a capital offence? And why didn't Jabez have something to say about that? An ex detective he obviously met in Parkhurst who was serving the same length of sentence as Le Grand (once you take into account the correct sentencing of Le Grand, which Jabez was totally wrong about) after committing murder. You'd have thought it would have been a brilliant illustrative comparison for Jabez' book?

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            • I wonder if it could be possible that Sgt. James alone was responsible for the press statement in 1892, that the Ripper was now in Portland Prison serving a 20 year sentence for another offence?

              In 1889, although he had been following Le Grand's criminal career since the 1887 magistrates court conviction of Le Grand and Demay, Sgt. James testified in the Old Bailey that he was unaware that Le Grand ran a private Detective Agency. Does this mean he wasn't aware that Le Grand had been operating in Whitechapel as a detective involved in the murders in '88, until it came out in later court cases?

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              • I think that's a very good suggestion Deb

                Apart from Balfour being mistaken, a possible scenario at Portland is that the warder has pointed out the wrong person, possibly Grainger, but has related the story of Le Grand

                The conversation with the ex-detective may have taken place later when the prisoner "in question" was not present so he didn't actually confirm that the man pointed out was Le Grand

                Thus the Portland man is a tall rough looking man and the Portland man (Le Grand) is respectable and exemplary

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                • Shame we can't give more stars to this thread for Debs and Rob's work.
                  ...
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                  • Nemo, perhaps the warder was also just influenced by Sgt. James' stories?

                    It's a weird situation we have here though. Charles Le Grand alias Grant, William Grainger alias Grant, and also mentioned to me by Chris Phillips a while back, Ostrog, alias Dr Grant, (all tall men) were all in Parkhurst together at the same time in the early 1900s, possibly when JTR was pointed out to Jabez...will the real JTR alias Grant please step forward..Lol

                    I'm interested in the man named Hall who 'entertained a bitter animosity' towards Sgt.James...that suggests a history between them? I'm thinking maybe James Hall who could get himself into trouble even without the aid of Le Grand?

                    How, thanks I feel like I'm ignoring you lately but I don't mean to! xx

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                    • Not at all Debs....I know how busy you are.
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                      • I can see how the warder's description might have originated from James, and it gives cause as to how Balfour may have been referred to James by the warder

                        That Le Grand's character was investigated by James adds weight to his conclusions

                        That Le Grand assaulted prostitutes in order to get them off "his patch" is quite significant in relation to the events surrounding the Stride killing - Le Grand being pipeman and possibly "Blotchy" is BS man

                        It would fit with the speculation that wideawake man at the Kelly scene was also Le Grand, and Hutchinson was possibly hired to tell his story

                        To affect the economics of the prostitutes in McCarthy's Rents may have been enough reason to commit the attack on Kelly

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                        • Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                          It would fit with the speculation that wideawake man at the Kelly scene was also Le Grand, and Hutchinson was possibly hired to tell his story
                          Hi Nemo,

                          I've often wondered if Hutchinson was persuaded in some way to take the heat off Blotchy. It just seems so convenient for him when the police were suddenly offered a completely different suspect, who supposedly entered that room with the victim, a couple of hours after Blotchy had been and gone.

                          It wouldn't make Blotchy the killer necessarily, but I'm damned sure he'd have ticked the no publicity box! Murder detection is generally about the last person seen with the victim, isn't it?

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X
                          I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

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                          • One other thing - is there any reason to think that BS man may not have been tipsy at all, as Schwartz assumed, but just had a strange gait - even a bit of a limp? I'd imagine it would be hard to tell the difference on a Saturday night!

                            Are there any other reports of men (blotchy or otherwise) walking oddly?

                            Love,

                            Caz
                            X
                            I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

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                            • Hi Caz

                              Forbes Winslow's candidate, Bellsmith had a strange gait

                              I've also seen unidentified suspects described similarly at least twice - I'll try and find the sources

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                              • Off the top of my head, I think there was someone with a limp involved with John Cleary and the Pinchin St case - I may be mis-remembering

                                I've seen it said that Cutbush had a limp

                                I think it was a man who left a bloodied pair of trousers in a pub that was also described as having a limp

                                I'll try and verify these when I get home

                                I'll start a new thread so that this one doesn't get contaminated with too much speculation (mine -lol)

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