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Previous convictions and another alias

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  • Previous convictions and another alias

    I've just been going through some Irish prison records and came across quite a lot of entries which I believe relate to William Grant/Grainger.

    The first records of imprisonment date from the late 1870s, several in the early and later 80s (none in the middle), and then nothing until 1902 and more right up to 1909. The majority of the convictions appear to be for being drunk and disorderly or drunk on the streets.

    From the DOB and addresses given in the Irish prison records index and the work posted by Chris Phillips that includes Grant/Grainger's know addresses it is possible to link several records to Grainger including ones for a William Green or Grainger and also ones for William Grant or Grainger. The interesting thing is that William Green alias Grainger was in prison in 87 for assault and also some time in 88, although an exact date isn't given in the records index.
    Perhaps this is where he really was at the time of the murders in 88 and not in the workhouse in Ireland?

    I am currently trying to sort through the index and perhaps see if I can access the original records somewhere. I'll post a summary of the convictions when I've sorted through the indexes and seen which are duplicate mentions.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I've just been going through some Irish prison records and came across quite a lot of entries which I believe relate to William Grant/Grainger.

    The first records of imprisonment date from the late 1870s, several in the early and later 80s (none in the middle), and then nothing until 1902 and more right up to 1909. The majority of the convictions appear to be for being drunk and disorderly or drunk on the streets.

    From the DOB and addresses given in the Irish prison records index and the work posted by Chris Phillips that includes Grant/Grainger's know addresses it is possible to link several records to Grainger including ones for a William Green or Grainger and also ones for William Grant or Grainger. The interesting thing is that William Green alias Grainger was in prison in 87 for assault and also some time in 88, although an exact date isn't given in the records index.
    Perhaps this is where he really was at the time of the murders in 88 and not in the workhouse in Ireland?

    I am currently trying to sort through the index and perhaps see if I can access the original records somewhere. I'll post a summary of the convictions when I've sorted through the indexes and seen which are duplicate mentions.
    Very interesting, Deb. Thanks.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
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    • #3
      Thanks for sharing that, Debs....it would be interesting to know the dates of his 1888 incarcerations.
      Good going and good luck in your search Debs !

      XXX
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      • #4
        Brilliant work Deb

        I'm especially interested in his new alias, and simply the fact he had another one

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        • #5
          Thanks Chris, How and Nemo.
          I've managed to access some of the full records but not all and I have found more for the early 1890s too but still looking. All the sentences are all for imprisonment of between 4 days and a week and one 1888 entry I managed to get a look at was dated for April.
          Another entry he is under (there are descriptions of him and a job given that all match as well as addresses corresponding between different records) gives his name as William or George- Green or Grainger.

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          • #6
            Great stuff Debs and I look forward to seeing the fruits of your research:-)

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            • #7
              Hi Debs. Is it possible that the 'Green' stuff was just a butchering of his name and not an actual alias, or did he sign his name that way? It would be awesome if you could find out the dates he was in jail in 1888.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                Hi Debs. Is it possible that the 'Green' stuff was just a butchering of his name and not an actual alias, or did he sign his name that way? It would be awesome if you could find out the dates he was in jail in 1888.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott
                No, the registers were filled in with 'Green' as an alternative surname for him. On some occassions it was listed as 'Grainger or Grant'

                Here's some examples from the actual records:
                william green.JPG william green2.JPGwilliam green3.JPG

                So far the only 1888 prison register entry that I've managed to look at says he was committed for drunkenness on 19th April 88 and the sentence expired on the 22nd April.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chris Scott View Post
                  Great stuff Debs and I look forward to seeing the fruits of your research:-)
                  Thanks Chris.

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                  • #10
                    That certainly looks like him Deb

                    Do you think that entry is ambiguous enough to suggest he went by the name "William George" and "William Green" rather than George Green/Granger

                    The ditto mark under William might even suggest a completely diferent person called George Granger/Green?

                    The doc actually says "Grangier"

                    I've searched the few archives I have access to and William Green/Granger/Grangier doesn't appear anywhere in connection with the Ripper

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                      That certainly looks like him Deb

                      Do you think that entry is ambiguous enough to suggest he went by the name "William George" and "William Green" rather than George Green/Granger

                      The ditto mark under William might even suggest a completely diferent person called George Granger/Green?

                      The doc actually says "Grangier"

                      I've searched the few archives I have access to and William Green/Granger/Grangier doesn't appear anywhere in connection with the Ripper
                      Hi Nemo, the entries are all numbered and on separate lines-George and Green are definitely written under William Grainger as an alternative name. It'snot really clear what combination of those names he used is it but I can say there are also records in Cork Co. prison for a George Green too, although I haven't accessedthe full records to compare description etc. yet.
                      The records have a column headed No. of times with sub headed columns C.and M. In the M column the number 18 appears for Grainger. I have a feeling it may be the number of court or magistrate convictions he has but not sure on that.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks Deb

                        IIRC Chris Philips suggested he might appear in a habitual criminal register of some kind, for being a persistent drunk

                        I would expect him to have been a violent drunk and the only evidence we have is of assaults against women

                        I can't remember the quote offhand from George Kebbell but I think there was a suggestion that a William Grant was a known bad character in the East End, whereas George said he wasn't (that) William Grant, as his name was Grainger and he was from a good family

                        William Grainger may well have been William Grant, the man known to the police (one recognised him under that name in 1910 according to Forbes Winslow) as a habitual drunk in the East End, but you would think someone would have mentioned that in 1895, which they didn't

                        There is the possibility the policeman (if he existed) recognised Grainger from post 1895 offences

                        There might have been some arrestable offence that caused his family to wash their hands of him circa 1889, possibly the previous assault on a woman, and this is also when George Kebbell suggested he might have been at St Bartholomews Hospital as a medical student under an alias

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                        • #13
                          Nemo, It would be good to find some newspaper reports in Irish papers wouldn't it? I found one mention in the prison records where Grainger was imprisoned for breaking out of the union ...this was in his later years. It's the 87 assault I'm most interested in, although it seems like it was minor if he got off with a fine?But there was mention that the 1895 case was his second assault on a woman was there?

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                          • #14
                            Hi Deb yes, I believe he had committed a similar assault on a woman previously but I think in a separate statement it was said that he couldn't be linked to previous knife attacks

                            I'll check the quote but I don't think that was referring to the attack on the woman specifically

                            He was supposed to have run away to sea at a young age but as you know he was in the Cork militia

                            I was wondering when was the last time he actually sailed because he couldn't name any ships or be traced to any ships. Even his mother couldn't name a ship he had been on

                            I'm 99% certain an address of Cockpit Lane, Dublin which he gave in 1889 was near the docks

                            It was suggested that he escaped from the police up the Thames in a small boat and George Kebbell added that he had recently sailed abroad in the capacity of ships doctor - meaning between 1888 and 1895

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nemo View Post

                              I'm 99% certain an address of Cockpit Lane, Dublin which he gave in 1889 was near the docks

                              It wasl suggested that he escaped from the police up the Thames in a small boat and George Kebbell added that he had recently sailed abroad in the capacity of ships doctor - meaning between 1888 and 1895
                              I didn't know all that about a suggested escape on a boat up the Thames, Nemo! Interesting stuff, I need to read up more on Kebble, I'm not as up to speed as you on him and Winslow.

                              Thanks for the info about Cockpit Lane! I was looking for confirmation that this was one of his addresses as he gives this in prison records too! As well as Ballyhooley rd and Barrackton (sometimes spelt Barrington) that links with his early life.
                              ...so, he still had hazel eyes as opposed to blue even when he lived in Cockpit lane, so it's all good!

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