Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Case For William Grant Grainger

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Nashwan View Post
    I know there's been previous mention of Grainger escaping a conviction either in 1887 or 1889



    I haven't found any news articles detailing the alleged crime.
    Thanks for posting this Nashwan.
    According to court calendar records the William Grant involved in this incident was a cellarman by occupation born 1851.
    Looking on the 1881 census there was a William C Grant b c 1850 living in Lambeth. His occupation is given as cellarman so the details seem to match the man involved in the 1889 incident. This man was born in Southwark, Grant/Grainger was born in Cork.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nashwan
    replied
    I know there's been previous mention of Grainger escaping a conviction either in 1887 or 1889

    NEW COURT. Friday, April 12th, 1889.
    Before Mr. Justice Grantham.
    380. WILLIAM GRANT (38) , Rape on Janet McCorquodale.
    MR. LAWRENCE, Q. C., and MR. GILL, JUN., Prosecuted; and MR. BESLEY Defended.
    NOT GUILTY .

    Source
    I haven't found any news articles detailing the alleged crime.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
    I was asking a question about available information, Debs. Not making assumptions about what there should or should not be. You read too much into my posts. It would be helpful to know where Grainger was residing at certain times is all.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott
    I read you were asking a question. I answered.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
    replied
    Hi Tom

    We only know of him in "Fulham workhouse" which Colin Roberts clarified was St George Hanover Square workhouse as per the PMG 7th Feb 1895 and also he was in Marylebone workhouse in 1910

    I'm sure we discussed that previously on another thread

    Only Kebbell mentions his "friends" who didn't want anything to do with him and also his family had disowned him, no names given of his friends

    In 1910 he had a "friend" who drew his attention to the articles in the press about him, specifically the comments by George Kebbell and the arguments against Grainger being the Ripper provided by Forbes Winslow

    This led Grainger to approach Forbes Winslow, proving to him with documentation that his name was Grant

    LFW took him to a magistrate to ask what could be done about people who accused him of being the Ripper and the magistrate said he could take action

    You may also remember LFW took Grainger to a police station and one of the policemen recognised him and said "Hullo Grant"

    LFW thought that showing that Grainger was alive when Kebbell stated he thought had died was enough to discredit Kebbell's claims

    Previously Kebbell had said that investigations were continuing into Grainger being the Ripper after his imprisonment but apparently someone gave the information that Grainger had died from poison and the investigations were halted

    Grainger did supposedly injure himself when cutting stone at Portland prison

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom_Wescott
    replied
    I was asking a question about available information, Debs. Not making assumptions about what there should or should not be. You read too much into my posts. It would be helpful to know where Grainger was residing at certain times is all.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
    Nemo and Debs,

    Is there ANY information available to us at all as to which lodging houses Grainger stayed in and at what times? Do you have the names of any of his known associates? Also, because I've forgotten, how old was he in 1888?

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott
    No, Tom. But should there be? Apart from his age which was 28 in 88.
    As Nemo said, Grainger lied about not having been in London before 1895-similar to Grande saying he arrived in the UK in the from Copenhagen in the 1880s. People with something to hide generally give very little away.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom_Wescott
    replied
    Nemo and Debs,

    Is there ANY information available to us at all as to which lodging houses Grainger stayed in and at what times? Do you have the names of any of his known associates? Also, because I've forgotten, how old was he in 1888?

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
    replied
    No problem Deb

    Of course there is the possibility he did insert something into his previous victim that wasn't a knife

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Nemo View Post
    Hi Trevor

    It's only known that he fraternised with prostitutes in Ireland and London

    Hi Deb

    It was said that he couldn't be linked with any previous use of the knife so I assume the similarity of the attack is that he treated the woman to a few drinks or something but then assaulted her in some way

    At the time of the assault on Alice Graham she said they had had a drink but he wasn't drunk

    When she approached him after the attempted assault by three hooligans she said he "turned funny"

    Kebbell described him as a "madman" who had been released from an asylum shortly before the Ripper crimes began

    I don't think he is referring to the 1891 stay in Banstead in that remark
    Thanks Nemo. I always forget the precise details.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
    replied
    Hi Trevor

    It's only known that he fraternised with prostitutes in Ireland and London

    Hi Deb

    It was said that he couldn't be linked with any previous use of the knife so I assume the similarity of the attack is that he treated the woman to a few drinks or something but then assaulted her in some way

    At the time of the assault on Alice Graham she said they had had a drink but he wasn't drunk

    When she approached him after the attempted assault by three hooligans she said he "turned funny"

    Kebbell described him as a "madman" who had been released from an asylum shortly before the Ripper crimes began

    I don't think he is referring to the 1891 stay in Banstead in that remark

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    What you described is more in line with the attack on Emma Smith.Plus there would appear to be some underlying factor as to why the victim chose not to give a statement. Clearly not the same MO as the ripper murders as with those no direct attack on the vagina was described.

    This MO of attacking the vagina would seem to be an act of violence used to stop the prostitutes plying their trade. Carried out by either an aggrieved punter or by a gang running prostitutes as an act of keeping them in line and teaching others a lesson.

    Was Grainger actively involved with prostitutes ?
    Yes, it is more in line with the Emma Smith. It also has some similarities to the much more severe attack on Mary Ann Austin in 1901. Grainger was still in prison in 1901 IIRC though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I think the woman involved in the alleged previous attack refused to press charges. And by in a 'similar fashion' were they referring to the nature of the stabbing- inside the vagina? Wouldn't these be a sadistic sexual type crime?
    What you described is more in line with the attack on Emma Smith.Plus there would appear to be some underlying factor as to why the victim chose not to give a statement. Clearly not the same MO as the ripper murders as with those no direct attack on the vagina was described.

    This MO of attacking the vagina would seem to be an act of violence used to stop the prostitutes plying their trade. Carried out by either an aggrieved punter or by a gang running prostitutes as an act of keeping them in line and teaching others a lesson.

    Was Grainger actively involved with prostitutes ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Nemo View Post

    IIRC In 1895 Grainger was said to have attacked a woman previously in a similar fashion to the attack on Alice Graham but he was not convicted
    I think the woman involved in the alleged previous attack refused to press charges. And by in a 'similar fashion' were they referring to the nature of the stabbing- inside the vagina? Wouldn't these be a sadistic sexual type crime?

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Nemo View Post
    You might also have thought that Grainger would provide an alibi if he had one - easy to state he was in Ireland in 1888

    Deb found that he was in Cork prison in April 1888 but it doesn't exclude him from any murder dates, and the police don't seem to be aware of that prison stay, at least it doesn't appear in the PMG article

    I also found that his militia regiment had a changing of the colour in September 1888 which isn't listed in the PMG either, so Grainger either didn't attend or again he did but the police were unaware of it

    All the details of his movements are from workhouse records or the asylum, so there is nothing to indicate Grainger provided them with details of his movements
    To look at it another way-of all the places Grainger was known to definitely frequent-Cork workhouse, Fulham workhouse, Cork Militia training camp and now Cork prison( there's over 20 entries for him in those records IIRC)-although a well documented regular to all these places and obvious traveller between Cork and London in later years, at least- he can't be shown to be in any of those institutions at the time of the 1888 murders.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO
    replied
    You might also have thought that Grainger would provide an alibi if he had one - easy to state he was in Ireland in 1888

    Deb found that he was in Cork prison in April 1888 but it doesn't exclude him from any murder dates, and the police don't seem to be aware of that prison stay, at least it doesn't appear in the PMG article

    I also found that his militia regiment had a changing of the colour in September 1888 which isn't listed in the PMG either, so Grainger either didn't attend or again he did but the police were unaware of it

    All the details of his movements are from workhouse records or the asylum, so there is nothing to indicate Grainger provided them with details of his movements

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X