A Case For William Grant Grainger

[Wicker Man]

As the article suggests, that the police had cause to thoroughly investigate Grainger's whereabouts at the time of the 'previous murders' (in 1888), but could not even place him in London, and with all the connections at their disposal then their failure to meet this basic requirement could be that he simply was not there.

Investigating him will include asking him directly. It will also include telegraphing the various shipping lines, and no doubt the police in Cork to obtain the workhouse records.

This must surely indicate that Grainger did not say he was in London.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Well, the police couldn't establish any ship he'd been on even though it seems he had been a sailor for years and the mention of his mother not being able to name one indicates to me that Grainger wasn't giving them any useful information like the name of a ship either

He did say that he arrived in London in January 1895 and that was the first time he'd ever been in London

That was untrue because workhouse and asylum records placed him in London prior to that date

He had also mentioned to his mother that he had been robbed and stripped in Whitechapel some years prior to 1895

I've checked the same workhouse records as the police and in those records he is registered under the name Grainger which Kebbell tried to establish, but the police did not acknowledge this and prosecuted and imprisoned him under the name Grant

He also said that he was innocent of the stabbing and that the hooligans had done it, so he was quite the liar

He was said to be well known to the police in the East End but I can't establish if that was in 1888 or later years

There is also the possibility that he was the same man Kebbell tried to link him with who was a medical student in St Barts hospital circa 1889

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

You might also have thought that Grainger would provide an alibi if he had one - easy to state he was in Ireland in 1888

Deb found that he was in Cork prison in April 1888 but it doesn't exclude him from any murder dates, and the police don't seem to be aware of that prison stay, at least it doesn't appear in the PMG article

I also found that his militia regiment had a changing of the colour in September 1888 which isn't listed in the PMG either, so Grainger either didn't attend or again he did but the police were unaware of it

All the details of his movements are from workhouse records or the asylum, so there is nothing to indicate Grainger provided them with details of his movements

[Debra Arif]

You might also have thought that Grainger would provide an alibi if he had one - easy to state he was in Ireland in 1888

Deb found that he was in Cork prison in April 1888 but it doesn't exclude him from any murder dates, and the police don't seem to be aware of that prison stay, at least it doesn't appear in the PMG article

I also found that his militia regiment had a changing of the colour in September 1888 which isn't listed in the PMG either, so Grainger either didn't attend or again he did but the police were unaware of it

All the details of his movements are from workhouse records or the asylum, so there is nothing to indicate Grainger provided them with details of his movements

To look at it another way-of all the places Grainger was known to definitely frequent-Cork workhouse, Fulham workhouse, Cork Militia training camp and now Cork prison( there's over 20 entries for him in those records IIRC)-although a well documented regular to all these places and obvious traveller between Cork and London in later years, at least- he can't be shown to be in any of those institutions at the time of the 1888 murders.

[Debra Arif]

IIRC In 1895 Grainger was said to have attacked a woman previously in a similar fashion to the attack on Alice Graham but he was not convicted

I think the woman involved in the alleged previous attack refused to press charges. And by in a 'similar fashion' were they referring to the nature of the stabbing- inside the vagina? Wouldn't these be a sadistic sexual type crime?

[Trevor Marriott]

I think the woman involved in the alleged previous attack refused to press charges. And by in a 'similar fashion' were they referring to the nature of the stabbing- inside the vagina? Wouldn't these be a sadistic sexual type crime?

What you described is more in line with the attack on Emma Smith.Plus there would appear to be some underlying factor as to why the victim chose not to give a statement. Clearly not the same MO as the ripper murders as with those no direct attack on the vagina was described.

This MO of attacking the vagina would seem to be an act of violence used to stop the prostitutes plying their trade. Carried out by either an aggrieved punter or by a gang running prostitutes as an act of keeping them in line and teaching others a lesson.

Was Grainger actively involved with prostitutes ?

[Debra Arif]

What you described is more in line with the attack on Emma Smith.Plus there would appear to be some underlying factor as to why the victim chose not to give a statement. Clearly not the same MO as the ripper murders as with those no direct attack on the vagina was described.

This MO of attacking the vagina would seem to be an act of violence used to stop the prostitutes plying their trade. Carried out by either an aggrieved punter or by a gang running prostitutes as an act of keeping them in line and teaching others a lesson.

Was Grainger actively involved with prostitutes ?

Yes, it is more in line with the Emma Smith. It also has some similarities to the much more severe attack on Mary Ann Austin in 1901. Grainger was still in prison in 1901 IIRC though.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Hi Trevor

It's only known that he fraternised with prostitutes in Ireland and London

Hi Deb

It was said that he couldn't be linked with any previous use of the knife so I assume the similarity of the attack is that he treated the woman to a few drinks or something but then assaulted her in some way

At the time of the assault on Alice Graham she said they had had a drink but he wasn't drunk

When she approached him after the attempted assault by three hooligans she said he "turned funny"

Kebbell described him as a "madman" who had been released from an asylum shortly before the Ripper crimes began

I don't think he is referring to the 1891 stay in Banstead in that remark

[Debra Arif]

Hi Trevor

It's only known that he fraternised with prostitutes in Ireland and London

Hi Deb

It was said that he couldn't be linked with any previous use of the knife so I assume the similarity of the attack is that he treated the woman to a few drinks or something but then assaulted her in some way

At the time of the assault on Alice Graham she said they had had a drink but he wasn't drunk

When she approached him after the attempted assault by three hooligans she said he "turned funny"

Kebbell described him as a "madman" who had been released from an asylum shortly before the Ripper crimes began

I don't think he is referring to the 1891 stay in Banstead in that remark

Thanks Nemo. I always forget the precise details.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

No problem Deb

Of course there is the possibility he did insert something into his previous victim that wasn't a knife

[Tom_Wescott]

Nemo and Debs,

Is there ANY information available to us at all as to which lodging houses Grainger stayed in and at what times? Do you have the names of any of his known associates? Also, because I've forgotten, how old was he in 1888?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra Arif]

Nemo and Debs,

Is there ANY information available to us at all as to which lodging houses Grainger stayed in and at what times? Do you have the names of any of his known associates? Also, because I've forgotten, how old was he in 1888?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

No, Tom. But should there be? Apart from his age which was 28 in 88.
As Nemo said, Grainger lied about not having been in London before 1895-similar to Grande saying he arrived in the UK in the from Copenhagen in the 1880s. People with something to hide generally give very little away.

[Tom_Wescott]

I was asking a question about available information, Debs. Not making assumptions about what there should or should not be. You read too much into my posts. It would be helpful to know where Grainger was residing at certain times is all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Hi Tom

We only know of him in "Fulham workhouse" which Colin Roberts clarified was St George Hanover Square workhouse as per the PMG 7th Feb 1895 and also he was in Marylebone workhouse in 1910

I'm sure we discussed that previously on another thread

Only Kebbell mentions his "friends" who didn't want anything to do with him and also his family had disowned him, no names given of his friends

In 1910 he had a "friend" who drew his attention to the articles in the press about him, specifically the comments by George Kebbell and the arguments against Grainger being the Ripper provided by Forbes Winslow

This led Grainger to approach Forbes Winslow, proving to him with documentation that his name was Grant

LFW took him to a magistrate to ask what could be done about people who accused him of being the Ripper and the magistrate said he could take action

You may also remember LFW took Grainger to a police station and one of the policemen recognised him and said "Hullo Grant"

LFW thought that showing that Grainger was alive when Kebbell stated he thought had died was enough to discredit Kebbell's claims

Previously Kebbell had said that investigations were continuing into Grainger being the Ripper after his imprisonment but apparently someone gave the information that Grainger had died from poison and the investigations were halted

Grainger did supposedly injure himself when cutting stone at Portland prison

[Debra Arif]

I was asking a question about available information, Debs. Not making assumptions about what there should or should not be. You read too much into my posts. It would be helpful to know where Grainger was residing at certain times is all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I read you were asking a question. I answered.