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  • #31
    Originally posted by Nemo View Post

    I don't think it's a viable explanation but the quote from Kebbell may refer to Grainger having removed uteri or kidneys during his previous medical career (possible, but highly unlikely in my view)
    Ah, I see what you mean, Nemo; That the sentence is discussing him being caught in the act of mutilation but mentions of removal of certain things is referring to procedures done by him in the past as a medical student,that were also done to other victims? Things he had experience of.

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    • #32
      Hi Deb

      Yes, it's possible to split the statements like that

      I keep assuming Grainger's medical training and experience was in the military or Navy but it is not necessarily so

      You will remember a woman came forward who possibly placed Grainger in training at St Bartholemew hospital

      Kebbell just said that Grainger had training to be a physician and Grainger described himself as a medical student

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
        Debs, Neems....

        It is a sincere shame that there wasn't a transcript made of the proceedings. Man, what I'd give to have a copy.

        Not trying to sound conspiratorial in the least....but do either of you think or may have thought before....that during the proceedings, someone mentioned Grainger within the context of the (6 1/2 years gone by ) Whitechapel Murders at all ?

        On checking my notes, apparently Horace Avory, prosecuting, mentioned that the crime recalled the murders of JtR

        I'll try and locate the source for that statement

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        • #34
          Here you go...

          The Times 28 March 1895

          William Grant, 34, was indicted for feloniously wounding Alice Graham, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm. Mr. Horace Avory prosecuted.

          The offence took place in Butler's street, Spitalfields, about 2 o'clock in the morning. Graham was seriously injured, but the prompt arrival of Police Constable Frazer no doubt prevented other injuries from being inflicted.

          A Verdict of Guilty was returned and Mr. Avory said the crime bore a strange resemblance to the Jack the Ripper murders, and the police had turned their attention to the matter without result.

          The prisoner described himself as a ship's engineer, but it could not be found that he had been in any employment. He had been traced backwards and forwards between the London and Cork workhouses, and at one time was in an asylum.

          The Recorder:- This is a Treasury prosecution, and I am amazed that no indictment was preferred for wounding with intent to murder, as the facts would have amply justified a verdict of guilty for that offence.

          Mr. Avory said that the Treasury only appeared in the case after the committal, and counsel was not consulted as to the indictmnent.

          The Recorder said the prisoner was lucky in not being indicted for the more serious offence. The prisoner was then sentenced to ten years' penal servitude. The Recorder complimented the officer Frazer.

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          • #35
            I never thought of looking in the Times....thanks Paul !
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            • #36
              Thanks Nemo.

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              • #37
                No problem

                I think if Sir Charles Hall had his way Grainger would have received a life sentence

                Horace Avory was quite a formidable and uncompromising prosecutor and I think he would have pressed for a maximum sentence

                It is quite likely the nature of the attack and particularly the wound on Alice that caused the trial details to be classed as unfit for publication rather than anything to do with a Ripper connection

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                • #38
                  Debs,Paul

                  I'm sure you two researchers have perused numerous Old Bailey transcripts...probably more than I have.
                  Do either of you recall whether you've seen another trial where the proceedings were declared unfit for publication ?

                  No secret agenda or theory to bolster here, I'm just curious.....
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                  • #39
                    Yes Howard

                    The Oscar Wilde trials are the foremost examples

                    Also, a few where a woman has given birth to a child and then killed it

                    Also some perjury/slander/libel trials and some robberies - usually of a woman by a man in which I suspect a sexual form of attack or threat occurred

                    I think anything sexual was likely to be considered unfit in the LVP

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                      Debs,Paul

                      I'm sure you two researchers have perused numerous Old Bailey transcripts...probably more than I have.
                      Do either of you recall whether you've seen another trial where the proceedings were declared unfit for publication ?

                      No secret agenda or theory to bolster here, I'm just curious.....
                      There's hundreds of them at the Old Bailey,How.
                      The cases treated like this all have one thing in common-they involve some sexual element. One unfit for publication case involved a man charged with 'selling indecent figures!'

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                      • #41
                        Debs,Paul

                        Thanks very much....this is good to know.
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