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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
    Hi Howard

    Interesting thread. The alleged photo of Buck's Row (now Durward Street) had me going because the tall building in the background is reminiscent of the Board School and the entranceway in the nearer foreground could be the entranceway of the garage (earlier the entrance to the stable yard) where Polly Nichols' body was found.

    But a check with photographs of the street on Casebook shows that the Board School in Durward Street looks different to the tall building in the alleged photo.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Hi Chris,

    A very interesting thread.

    I can see where the poster was coming from, though faithful photos showing the garage, stretch of wall, and the Board School have been floating around the net for years, not to mention their inclusion in numerous books. It can only be put down to sloppy research.

    I've been trying to recall a photo, posted some time ago (somewhere), which purports to be a photo of the rear of George Yard Buildings. I seem to remember someone having bought this photo for quite a large sum. I also recall the photos credibility being called into question. I do know that Winston G. Ramsey in his excellent book, "The East End Then And Now" (1997) photographed (1972) the landing where Tabram met her end. I wondered if the buyer of the George Yard Buildings photo bought this photo from Ramsey which, if so, would confirm it as being genuine.

    My regards,

    Sean.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
      I've been trying to recall a photo, posted some time ago (somewhere), which purports to be a photo of the rear of George Yard Buildings. I seem to remember someone having bought this photo for quite a large sum. I also recall the photos credibility being called into question. I do know that Winston G. Ramsey in his excellent book, "The East End Then And Now" (1997) photographed (1972) the landing where Tabram met her end. I wondered if the buyer of the George Yard Buildings photo bought this photo from Ramsey which, if so, would confirm it as being genuine.

      My regards,

      Sean.
      Hi Sean,

      The George Yard Buildings landing photographs in Ramseys book are not George Yard Buildings. They are the next building down.
      I have heard of the photo you speak about and while i haven't seen it I k know people who have. I think John Bennett has seen it. I can't remember the blokes name but he acted a bit funny over it. John Bennett said it was the rear of George Yard Buildings.
      There is a photo of George Yard Buildings in Johns E1 book.

      Regards

      Rob

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
        Hi Sean,

        The George Yard Buildings landing photographs in Ramseys book are not George Yard Buildings. They are the next building down.
        I have heard of the photo you speak about and while i haven't seen it I k know people who have. I think John Bennett has seen it. I can't remember the blomes name but he acted a bit funny over it. John Bennett said it was the reat of George Yard Buildings.
        The is a photo of George Yard Buildings in Johns E1 book.

        Regards

        Rob
        Hi Rob,

        One thing that made me think that Ramsey had the correct location of the George Yard Buildings staircase is the fact that he photographed the original entrance, and later purchased (on demolition) the gate, which he incorporated in the entrance to his garden.

        He also took many other photos of the murder sites (1970s) which often featured his young son, as does the purported George Yard Buildings staircase photo.

        I've just checked out John's book and, yes, that is the photo I was thinking of.

        Is Ramsey still around?

        My regards,

        Sean.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
          Hi Rob,

          One thing that made me think that Ramsey had the correct location of the George Yard Buildings staircase is the fact that he photographed the original entrance, and later purchased (on demolition) the gate, which he incorporated in the entrance to his garden.

          He also took many other photos of the murder sites (1970s) which often featured his young son, as does the purported George Yard Buildings staircase photo.

          I've just checked out John's book and, yes, that is the photo I was thinking of.

          Is Ramsey still around?

          My regards,

          Sean.
          Hi Sean,

          I wanted to use the interior photo for the then and now book and contacted him about it. He sent a copy with two others and it wad clear it was the building next door. I was a bit surprised but I didn't have the heart to tell him. I don't how he made the mistake but I don't believe he did it deliberately.
          He is stil about and runs Battle of Britain books.

          All the best

          Rob

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
            Hi Sean,

            I wanted to use the interior photo for the then and now book and contacted him about it. He sent a copy with two others and it wad clear it was the building next door. I was a bit surprised but I didn't have the heart to tell him. I don't how he made the mistake but I don't believe he did it deliberately.
            He is stil about and runs Battle of Britain books.

            All the best

            Rob
            Hi Rob,

            Thanks for the info.

            I can understand you not having the heart to tell him. I ,too, wouldn't have had!

            I keep meaning to contact the chap who owns the door knocker of 29 Hanbury Street. He's a museum curator, who obtained the knocker from William Fishman. He told me that Fishman removed the knocker during the demolition of no. 29. I've seen and handled this knocker, which is Georgian in style. Fishman, to me, means good provenance!

            My best wishes,

            Sean.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
              Hi Rob,

              Thanks for the info.

              I can understand you not having the heart to tell him. I ,too, wouldn't have had!

              I keep meaning to contact the chap who owns the door knocker of 29 Hanbury Street. He's a museum curator, who obtained the knocker from William Fishman. He told me that Fishman removed the knocker during the demolition of no. 29. I've seen and handled this knocker, which is Georgian in style. Fishman, to me, means good provenance!

              My best wishes,

              Sean.
              Hi Sean,

              Thankfully only one of the doors had a knocker on it so there shouldn't be any doubt about it.
              I am not sure if the gate Winston Ramsey has from George Yard Buildings was there in 1888. The building was just a Model Dwelling then and I doubt if a gate would have been there.

              This is a close up of the Ramsey photo and you can see a building in the background. This is part of Toynbee Hall and you can see the two buildings are very close together so it can't be the landing of George Yard Buildings but St Georges House.

              Click image for larger version

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              Click image for larger version

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              Rob

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                Hi Sean,

                Thankfully only one of the doors had a knocker on it so there shouldn't be any doubt about it.
                I am not sure if the gate Winston Ramsey has from George Yard Buildings was there in 1888. The building was just a Model Dwelling then and I doubt if a gate would have been there.

                This is a close up of the Ramsey photo and you can see a building in the background. This is part of Toynbee Hall and you can see the two buildings are very close together so it can't be the landing of George Yard Buildings but St Georges House.

                [ATTACH]18306[/ATTACH]

                [ATTACH]18307[/ATTACH]


                Rob
                Hi Rob,

                The chap told me that the knocker was present in a photo of 29 Hanbury Street. I did have a photo (on my mobile) of the knocker, but lost it when my wife and I separated. I intended to post it. And with the owners approval!

                I agree that it's unlikely the gate would have been there in 1888. In fact, I'm convinced it wasn't.

                Thank you for posting the attachments - you've settled it, at least for me!

                My best wishes,

                Sean.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
                  Hi Rob,

                  The chap told me that the knocker was present in a photo of 29 Hanbury Street. I did have a photo (on my mobile) of the knocker, but lost it when my wife and I separated. I intended to post it. And with the owners approval!

                  I agree that it's unlikely the gate would have been there in 1888. In fact, I'm convinced it wasn't.

                  Thank you for posting the attachments - you've settled it, at least for me!

                  My best wishes,

                  Sean.
                  Hi Sean,

                  Hopefully it looked like this.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Regards

                  Rob

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                    Hi Sean,

                    Hopefully it looked like this.

                    [ATTACH]18308[/ATTACH]

                    Regards

                    Rob
                    Hi Rob,

                    Yes it did, although one side (the right hand side) was broken. I was told that Fishman retrieved it during the demolition of Hanbury Street. The door had been removed and was lying against the building. Fishman asked one of the contractors if he could remove it. He also took a number of photos of the demolition in progress, which the owner of the knocker also has. The chap who owns the knocker is a respected historian in his own right. The knocker's provenance is excellent.

                    My regards,

                    Sean.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                      Hi Sean,

                      Hopefully it looked like this.

                      [ATTACH]18308[/ATTACH]

                      Regards

                      Rob
                      Hi Rob,

                      The Hanbury Street door knocker could well be the only, surviving, tangible artefact linked to one of the crime scenes.

                      My regards,

                      Sean.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
                        Hi Rob,

                        The Hanbury Street door knocker could well be the only, surviving, tangible artefact linked to one of the crime scenes.

                        My regards,

                        Sean.
                        Hi Sean,

                        Quite possibly. I know people who have a sett from Mitre Square that to could be classed as a link.
                        Stewart Evans has a fleck of paint from the Hanbury Street door. Which has gone missing but he probably has it somewhere.

                        Regards

                        Rob

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                          Hi Sean,

                          Quite possibly. I know people who have a sett from Mitre Square that to could be classed as a link.
                          Stewart Evans has a fleck of paint from the Hanbury Street door. Which has gone missing but he probably has it somewhere.

                          Regards

                          Rob
                          Hi Rob,

                          I messaged the chap who owns the knocker this afternoon. It was an old email address, but it went through.

                          I recall the meeting we had in a south London museum. The chap in question was the curator of this museum. We sat at a table in the cafeteria during which he produced the knocker, wrapped in newspaper. I examined it and took two photographs. He also brought along another item which he thought would be of interest to me. The item was a noose, employed during the Nuremberg trials!

                          Regarding the Mitre Square setts (cobbles, as I prefer to call them) the configuration (as you know) has changed from 1888 to the present day. Maybe the original cobbles were simply reset in different positions. We can't be sure, but I suspect this was the case.

                          My regards,

                          Sean.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
                            Hi Rob,

                            I messaged the chap who owns the knocker this afternoon. It was an old email address, but it went through.

                            I recall the meeting we had in a south London museum. The chap in question was the curator of this museum. We sat at a table in the cafeteria during which he produced the knocker, wrapped in newspaper. I examined it and took two photographs. He also brought along another item which he thought would be of interest to me. The item was a noose, employed during the Nuremberg trials!

                            Regarding the Mitre Square setts (cobbles, as I prefer to call them) the configuration (as you know) has changed from 1888 to the present day. Maybe the original cobbles were simply reset in different positions. We can't be sure, but I suspect this was the case.

                            My regards,

                            Sean.
                            Hi Sean,

                            Hopefully you will get a response.

                            I prefer cobbles as well but technically I think thet are setts. They remained unchanged till at least 1979 and I think the ones around the murder site were realigned to match the rest of the square.

                            Regards

                            Rob

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                              Hi Sean,

                              Hopefully you will get a response.

                              I prefer cobbles as well but technically I think thet are setts. They remained unchanged till at least 1979 and I think the ones around the murder site were realigned to match the rest of the square.

                              Regards

                              Rob
                              Hi Rob,

                              The technical name is indeed setts, or Belgian blocks, but like you I prefer the term cobbles. And to be honest most East End Victorians would have used the generic term cobbles to describe the layout of their streets and roads.

                              I haven't visited Mitre Square for a least three years, and so haven't fully taken in the revamp, although I did contact Boris Johnson (mayor) some years ago, as I was interested in seeing that any remnants of the Holy Trinity Priory (that may be uncovered during excavations) be preserved. I received an ambivalent reply from a quango.

                              My regards,

                              Sean.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sean Crundall View Post
                                Hi Rob,

                                The technical name is indeed setts, or Belgian blocks, but like you I prefer the term cobbles. And to be honest most East End Victorians would have used the generic term cobbles or cobblestones to describe the layout of their streets and roads.

                                I haven't visited Mitre Square for a least three years, and so haven't fully taken in the revamp, although I did contact Boris Johnson (mayor) some years ago, as I was interested in seeing that any remnants of the Holy Trinity Priory (that may be uncovered during excavations) be preserved. I received an ambivalent reply from a quango.

                                My regards,

                                Sean.
                                I think the revamp looks fine. I will have a look over the weekend but the recent changes never bothered me as Mitre Square disappeared years ago.

                                Regards

                                Rob

                                Comment

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