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Suggested annotations for Hallie Rubenhold's book "The Five" (2019)

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  • Whether this was a genuine mistake or a deliberate one, it’s obviously better to be able to put a name to your corroborative source.

    The comparison between this, which she accepts without blinking, and her rejection of the idea that Kelly had a brother in the Scots Guards is very telling. She wants Kelly to have had an exotic French interlude and she also wants her to have had a romantic interlude with a Guards officer in the West End. So she accepts the story about the dresses and misattributes it, and she misleads her readers about what kind of lads were recruited into the SG and neglects to mention that the 2nd Bn were based a few minutes away from Pennington Street at about the time Kelly was there.



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    • Great stuff, Gary.

      She really has created a group of fictional characters.
      "Rescued" from reality.

      JM

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      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

        Hallie R. tells us:

        Mrs Felix recalled an incident that she claimed occurred shortly after Mary Jane arrived at 79 Pennington Street.

        And that incident was the repossession of Kelly’s expensive dresses from the ‘French Lady’ in Knightsbridge.

        Of course, Mrs Felix said nothing of the sort. The story of the repossession of the dresses was uncovered by a Press Association reporter who visited Breezer’s Hill/Pennington Street on either the 11th or the 12th November. The way his report reads, he made contact with ‘Mrs McCarthy’ but not with Elisabeth Boekee. So it seems he heard the story second hand. The question then arises, where did Mrs McCarthy hear the story? Was it from Boekee, from Kelly or someone else?

        It’s quite conceivable that the French lady/French trips/riding in carriages/expensive clothes etc were entirely fictional.
        It's funny you should make that last comment, because Pat Marshall just sent me another "detained box" story (which I hope she'll be posting) that struck me as remarkably similar to this one found by Jurriaan:
        https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...lly-equivalent

        For some reason it made me wonder whether the dealings between Mary and her former employer could have been more commonplace, and the stories of a high-class brothel and trips to Paris could have been romances of her invention.

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        • As I say, it could be a genuine mistake (she’s made plenty of them) but it elevates the unattributed dresses story to one told by someone who can be identified and just happens to be Mrs Buki’s sister-in-law (brother-in-laws partner).




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          • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

            It's funny you should make that last comment, because Pat Marshall just sent me another "detained box" story (which I hope she'll be posting) that struck me as remarkably similar to this one found by Jurriaan:
            https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...lly-equivalent

            For some reason it made me wonder whether the dealings between Mary and her former employer could have been more commonplace, and the stories of a high-class brothel and trips to Paris could have been romances of her invention.
            I think there may have been another such story we discussed some time ago. Marcus A may remember. I imagine that holding on to a misbehaving employee’s goods and chattels may have been quite common.

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            • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

              It's funny you should make that last comment, because Pat Marshall just sent me another "detained box" story (which I hope she'll be posting) that struck me as remarkably similar to this one found by Jurriaan:
              https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...lly-equivalent

              For some reason it made me wonder whether the dealings between Mary and her former employer could have been more commonplace, and the stories of a high-class brothel and trips to Paris could have been romances of her invention.
              Pat has now posted the report. For some reason it wasn't visible originally, but the problem has been corrected now:
              https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...ent#post597505

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              • I’m rereading the MJK section of The Five and finding lots of dubious stuff. One thing I spotted was that Hallie described Maria Harvey as an unmarried laundress. Is there anything to support that?

                I’m intrigued by the possibility that Kelly’s Maria Harvey may have been the widowed washerwoman of that name found by Debra in the STGITE workhouse admissions register.

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                • Forgive me for bringing up a question I asked a long time ago about Spelthorne Sanatorium in the post 'Annie Chapman's Background'. This, from my point of view, is one of the most important statements I've seen in that book so far (I haven't read beyond Annie's chapter, though). The information is so accurate that it is hard to believe that it is not true. As I said, in May I contacted the alleged HR source, the Community of St Mary the Virgin, where the log books where Annie was registered seem to be located, but unfortunately I received an email from one of the sisters of the convent rejecting my request. This answer didn't even help me to know if those entries appear in the books... although I suspect that they do. Has anyone else tried to trace this track? It would be decisive to be able to complete Annie's background.

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                  • Originally posted by Jose Oranto View Post
                    Forgive me for bringing up a question I asked a long time ago about Spelthorne Sanatorium in the post 'Annie Chapman's Background'. This, from my point of view, is one of the most important statements I've seen in that book so far (I haven't read beyond Annie's chapter, though). The information is so accurate that it is hard to believe that it is not true. As I said, in May I contacted the alleged HR source, the Community of St Mary the Virgin, where the log books where Annie was registered seem to be located, but unfortunately I received an email from one of the sisters of the convent rejecting my request. This answer didn't even help me to know if those books really exist... although I suspect that they do. Has anyone else tried to trace this track? It would be decisive to be able to complete Annie's background.
                    I haven't tried this particular archive, Jose, but I was recently interested in accessing another archive looked after by an order of Catholic nuns, from which I had read some interesting information referenced in a church pamphlet to that particular archive, but I found that even the archives catalogues was only accessible to those granted special permission to visit the archives and look through it and this opportunity was apparently open only to academics and serious researchers with a letter of introduction . Maybe a similar thing would apply with the archive you are interested in?

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                    • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                      I haven't tried this particular archive, Jose, but I was recently interested in accessing another archive looked after by an order of Catholic nuns, from which I had read some interesting information referenced in a church pamphlet to that particular archive, but I found that even the archives catalogues was only accessible to those granted special permission to visit the archives and look through it and this opportunity was apparently open only to academics and serious researchers with a letter of introduction . Maybe a similar thing would apply with the archive you are interested in?

                      Perhaps, in my case, it does not depend on the way of requesting it, but on who requests it... HR could see it

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