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The Real Mary Kelly - Wynne Weston-Davies

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  • Hi Debra and Anna Thanks for the info you both posted...
    Debra I am trying to find Annie Jones at Spring Gardens but cant seem to find her in 1911. Could you give me the page no etc and any more details please. I have been looking in 1911 for Annie Jones (born 1895 in Whitechapel) living with an Elizabeth Jones .

    Correction just found it wil;l have a look ....Thanks

    Pat......

    Comment


    • I have ordered a Craig cert but it will take 9 days...I am a bit confused what with the davies and Jones.
      We dont have Elizabeth in 1881 and the 1901 is that correct....If we could find them it might help to see if it is her....
      Will have another look tomorrow.
      Pat......

      Comment


      • Refreshing again: The family story behind EW-D Craig is that the family did not hear from her after a certain time, never heard from her again.

        Yet John (Johnto) Davies told his son that she had come to a bad end. Maybe only the brother "knew" whatever?

        There is information about family dynamics, including that John's wife was from a strong Calvinist background and appearances mattered. Considering this, it seems suicide would be another possible "bad end" that would have been covered up.

        So I am thinking in general the family did not know what happened but the brother in London seemed to know something but he was not specific. So it is not necessarily true that family never heard from/of her again. The author claims that Johnto visited his sister in Pennington Street. Is this something known in the family or is it surmised in order to make EWD into MJK?

        (In a way I am being critical but do not mean to be negative. There is a heck of a good family tale in this book and I am glad I own it.)

        So then, considering the marriage posted down below here, did she simply cut ties with family all along? Or did family know her "bad end" was final, whenever it happened? A bad disease, a drug addiction or a prison sentence can be a "bad end" but people can recover and go on.

        (Personally I don't see MJK as a really "high end prostitute". I could see her as a top girl in an establishment owned by a Morgenstern associate but I see that as a notch below "high end." Just my opinion.)

        I see a discussion forming about the name Jones which reminds me of the shock of genealogy research--for MJK--in Welsh records. If you don't want to be a Davies you may as well be a Jones IMO. They even have criminal cases in the papers where the defendant, a witness or two and an attorney are all named Davies. Sometimes the judge is named Davies. Social evenings were provided by Davies, attended liberally by Davies and the entertainment came from some musically talented Davies. If MJK chose to lie about her marriage she couldn't have chosen better. Frustrating!
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
          I have ordered a Craig cert but it will take 9 days...I am a bit confused what with the davies and Jones.
          We dont have Elizabeth in 1881 and the 1901 is that correct....If we could find them it might help to see if it is her....
          Will have another look tomorrow.
          Pat......
          Pat, there's a lot of fudge in the book around where Elizabeth WD was in 1881. WWD claims all sorts of things about Elizabeth being in service to a certain named family (sorry,my memory fails) but there is no evidence for this. A couple of possible ID's in London in 81 have been suggested on the forums but it's the same old problem of as soon as the identifying name 'Weston' is dropped we are left looking in London for an Elizabeth Davis born in Wales!

          Comment


          • Anna, you're not wrong about the popularity of "Davies" in Wales. Top five Welsh surnames from Wikipedia, with percentages in brackets:

            Jones (5.75)
            Williams (3.72)
            Davies (3.72)
            Evans (2.47)
            Thomas (2.43)

            To put things in some sort of perspective, "Smith" trails far behind in twelfth position at 0.85%, just after Morgan, Griffiths and Edwards.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen"
            (F. Nietzsche)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
              I have ordered a Craig cert but it will take 9 days...I am a bit confused what with the davies and Jones.
              We dont have Elizabeth in 1881 and the 1901 is that correct....If we could find them it might help to see if it is her....
              Will have another look tomorrow.
              Pat......
              One interesting thing on the 1906 Twocock marriage certificate that Gary picked up on is the correction of the spelling of Elizabeth to Elizebath, which is how the bride herself spelt it in her signature. That suggests that the woman concerned had a specific way she spelt her name that she had used always used. If she had also used the spelling Elizabeth in the past, it would, as a rule, be included in the marriage index as a separate entry linking to the same marriage register entry.

              Comment


              • Hi All Debra in answer to your last posting I found her around 1881 in a newspaper article in a welsh newspaper I posted it online I am sure a good while back possibly on casebook forums I shall have to have a look.
                I agree about the names Anna. In my own family I found a John Lewis who married a Jane Jones around 1800 in Deptford they were both born in Wales. I didnt even know what part....
                Pat.......

                Comment


                • The Cambrian News and Merionethshire Standard

                  9th August 1878
                  Article attached shows Elizabeth was in Aberngel in 1878....
                  BTW free access to Welsh newspapers
                  http://newspapers.library.wales

                  Pat....
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • A more Hebrew version of Elizabeth is Elzebath. Minus the i. I was thinking these are two different names with two different Hebrew roots but a quick search says they all come from Hebrew Elisheva, "My God is my oath" or "God is satisfied." Other derivations are Elzbeth or Elzpeth. I am going into detail since we are dealing with a Jones. If a less common spelling of Elizabeth ran in the family, like mother to daughter, it might help a bit with the Jones issue.

                    My thought, if the marriage certificate was for EWD, could she have changed the spelling of her name on purpose? Of course she COULD, but would she, to avoid people from her past finding her?

                    The "certain family" was Vane-Tempest. (I am not feeling well or I would provide more info.) The EWD story is her mother was a lady's maid for this family and Elizabeth likely followed in her mother's footsteps. Mr. Vane-Tempest died and his widow retired to an estate in Wales. Elizabeth wanted to continue a gayer life in London and so she stayed in London.

                    (I am generous in sharing the details because WWD shared all these things here around the time his book came out.)
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
                      Hi All Debra in answer to your last posting I found her around 1881 in a newspaper article in a welsh newspaper I posted it online I am sure a good while back possibly on casebook forums I shall have to have a look.
                      I agree about the names Anna. In my own family I found a John Lewis who married a Jane Jones around 1800 in Deptford they were both born in Wales. I didnt even know what part....
                      Pat.......
                      Yes, I remember that one now, Pat. It showed she wasn't in service where WWD said she was in 81 didn't it?
                      I posted one a bit after too about attendees at the funeral of one of EWD siblings and it said something about all the daughters of the family being dead....suggesting Elizabeth was not alive at the time. I will try and find that one again.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                        A more Hebrew version of Elizabeth is Elzebath. Minus the i. I was thinking these are two different names with two different Hebrew roots but a quick search says they all come from Hebrew Elisheva, "My God is my oath" or "God is satisfied." Other derivations are Elzbeth or Elzpeth. I am going into detail since we are dealing with a Jones. If a less common spelling of Elizabeth ran in the family, like mother to daughter, it might help a bit with the Jones issue.

                        My thought, if the marriage certificate was for EWD, could she have changed the spelling of her name on purpose? Of course she COULD, but would she, to avoid people from her past finding her?

                        The "certain family" was Vane-Tempest. (I am not feeling well or I would provide more info.) The EWD story is her mother was a lady's maid for this family and Elizabeth likely followed in her mother's footsteps. Mr. Vane-Tempest died and his widow retired to an estate in Wales. Elizabeth wanted to continue a gayer life in London and so she stayed in London.

                        (I am generous in sharing the details because WWD shared all these things here around the time his book came out.)
                        That;s the family, thanks, Anna. I think Pat's reminder about the newspaper article she found puts an end to that idea of WWD's.

                        There are a fair few Elizebaths in Wales, perhaps it was a favourite spelling there in particular?
                        I posted earlier of an Elizebath Davis of a similar age to the 1906 marriage age who was a servant in Somerset. The spelling of the name caught my attention. Her birthplace was Wales.

                        Comment


                        • http://newspapers.library.wales/view...16/3193219/21/


                          This was the original article I found and posted. It is is an obit for a "Mrs D S Price", no full name given, but her husband is named as "Mr D L Price".This was Elizabeth Weston Davies' sister, Hannah.

                          The article goes on to talk about the sons and daughters of Edward Davies (Hannah was one, as was Elizabeth Weston Davies)
                          The article says that the two sons, Messrs Edward Davies, Aberangell, and John Weston Davies, Gloucester [Elizabeth's brothers] are staying to mourn after her {Hannah Price]. These are known to be Elizabeth Weston Davies brothers.

                          The article also mentions that the only surviving daughter [of Edward Davies] is the widow of the late Rev Griffith Hughes. She was in the Khassia Hills with her husband for ten years, and came to Rhos to attend to her sister in her last hours."

                          The article is dated 1908 and suggests that it was known that Elizabeth Weston Davies was dead at this time.

                          Comment


                          • This is taken from the online family tree and fits with a couple of lines from the newspaper story that Gareth translated for me at the time I posted it on Casebook:

                            Hannah Davies , daur of Edward Davies and Ann Hurst b 1853 Tallyln married David L Price.

                            Matilda Ann Davies, daur of Edward Davies and Ann Hurst b 1847 Tredegar married Griffith Hughes.

                            Mary Weston Davies daur of Edward Davies and Ann Hurst b 1851 Tallyln married John Evans and died in 1908 Isle of Wight.


                            Edward Hurst Davies b 1855 Tallyln son of Edward Davies and Ann Hurst died 1918

                            John Weston Davies b 1863 Mallwyd son of Edward Davies and Ann Hunt died
                            1932 Dorset and was living in Gloucester c 1909 when his son was born.

                            Comment


                            • It looks like Elizabeth is notably missing altogether from the family tree.

                              That calls to mind lines from melodrama where disgraced family members are tossed from the family fold with lines like, "You are dead to us." We don't absolutely KNOW all about EWD but WWD has made his assertions.

                              I have commented before that in my own fairly Victorian family, some things would never have been spoken of. The practical purpose of this kind of deliberate silence is to protect young people from going astray. If your cousin got pregnant out of wedlock for instance, she would be spoken of in whispers or not at all in order to maintain the standard that bad behaviour must not be emulated. This was not because of a belief in existential shame upon the family as melodramas depict but rather practicality. Using the example of what we now call single parenthood, raising a child this way today is difficult and it was harder yet in times past. Therefore is was smart to avoid that sort of thing.

                              At minimum, EWD's short term marriage did not set a good example for a younger generation.

                              (EWD missing from the family tree also calls to mind Mrs. Phoenix/Felix' information that MJK's family was well to do in Cardiff and they had "discarded" her. However, we know many things can line up perfectly yet the solution eludes. Such we had with Bridget Kelly, the perfect MJK, except she immigrated to New York and died in the 20th Century.)
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                              Comment


                              • EWD is on the same family tree, Anna. Her date of death is given as 9th Nov 88, as if it were a fact.

                                The newspaper article may be correct in that only one daughter of Edward Davies was still alive in 1908. EWD may have died anytime between her 1884 marriage and the funeral of her sister in 1908.It would be impossible to check all the deaths for an Elizabeth Davies of the right age between those years.

                                Or it could mean she was cut off by the familyand treated as though she were dead but I don't think we should assume that. There is a lot of what Wynne Weston Davies wrote in his book that has been proven not to be true; the idea that Mrs McLeod was estranged from her husband Robert for example. Mrs McLeod (nee Maundrelle) did in fact die at the cottage provided by the navy for her husband, in Aberdeen, Livia Trivia found the death and I got the certificate.Robert was present at the death.

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