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The Real Mary Kelly - Wynne Weston-Davies

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  • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    EWD is on the same family tree, Anna. Her date of death is given as 9th Nov 88, as if it were a fact.

    The newspaper article may be correct in that only one daughter of Edward Davies was still alive in 1908. EWD may have died anytime between her 1884 marriage and the funeral of her sister in 1908.It would be impossible to check all the deaths for an Elizabeth Davies of the right age between those years.

    Or it could mean she was cut off by the familyand treated as though she were dead but I don't think we should assume that. There is a lot of what Wynne Weston Davies wrote in his book that has been proven not to be true; the idea that Mrs McLeod was estranged from her husband Robert for example. Mrs McLeod (nee Maundrelle) did in fact die at the cottage provided by the navy for her husband, in Aberdeen, Livia Trivia found the death and I got the certificate.Robert was present at the death.
    I am surprised about that date of death. We probably know the source. If there is any question about the date given, the range you give makes sense.

    As I commented before, "bad end" could have a lot of different definitions and need not equal murder by JtR.

    (I am being careful what I say. Since much of the new information in the book was previously shared here, I get the idea the book was a vehicle to propel an exhumation for DNA testing. A number of things in the book sound factual then the "yeah, but..." thoughts intrude. Where is the proof for this or that? Family story or reasonable guess?)

    In looking for the rest of MJK's background in London I have an idea the Morgensterns and their associates were involved all the way along until she left Pennington Street for good. I still look for Dutch/French/Belgian/Cardiff/London gay house connections. Maybe something will come up sometime. It would make sense that Mary was entitled to her box of costly dresses if those dresses were within the milieu of a family operation. Did the dresses belong to Mary or to a business?
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • I initially had the opposite feeling, Anna. I thought Weston Davies' inclusion in the book that he had been given some sort of permission in principal (not sure of the actual legal term used) to exhume MJK's body was being used to add weight to his identification of Mary Jane Kelly as Elizabeth Weston Davies (and sell books!) but that was as far as he intended to go down the exhumation avenue 0nce his book was published. He did mention at the time that it would be costly to carry out an actual exhumation and that others were interested in pursuing this avenue. Now we all know who those people were.

      I agree completely with the rest of your post. I feel there's much more to uncover about the inhabitants of Pennington Street in the early 80's and their mass move to Limehouse..

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      • What might be awful is that this woman's story, saying she was a prostitute and no good, could have been stated by a man whos wife had left him.
        It could be his words of bitterness were believed by her family because he was a journalist. She might have not got on with him and just waited and met someone else.

        I did not find anything to support that her mother worked for the Vane Tempest family, is there anything in the book? She appears in the census to have brought up her own family then married David Evans a Talyllyn grocer (might have been draper) and helped in the shop....

        Pat...............

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        • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
          What might be awful is that this woman's story, saying she was a prostitute and no good, could have been stated by a man whos wife had left him.
          It could be his words of bitterness were believed by her family because he was a journalist. She might have not got on with him and just waited and met someone else.

          I did not find anything to support that her mother worked for the Vane Tempest family, is there anything in the book? She appears in the census to have brought up her own family then married David Evans a Talyllyn grocer (might have been draper) and helped in the shop....

          Pat...............
          Absolutely right,Pat.
          I thought similar things. What's sad is that x amount of years later a direct relation seems willing to sell out a female member of his own family for cash.

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          • 1881 Welsh Census

            In Montgomeryshire Darowen working for a famer Richard Davies born 1808 in Darowent. (also wife Mary and Sons Edward Hunphrey and Evan)

            Elizabeth Jones
            b1859 in Talyllyn Merionethshire.
            Unmarried
            General servant

            If you look at the census there is an Ebineezer Jones b 1792 Llanowyddyn, Montgomeryshire might be something to do with her name?

            Pat....

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            • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
              What might be awful is that this woman's story, saying she was a prostitute and no good, could have been stated by a man whos wife had left him.
              It could be his words of bitterness were believed by her family because he was a journalist. She might have not got on with him and just waited and met someone else.

              I did not find anything to support that her mother worked for the Vane Tempest family, is there anything in the book? She appears in the census to have brought up her own family then married David Evans a Talyllyn grocer (might have been draper) and helped in the shop....

              Pat...............
              "At the age of 19 Elizabeth's mother had become lady's maid to the 16-year-old daughter of a Montgomeryshire landowner, John Edwards," page 30. Edwards owned hillsides full of slate and became one of the richest men in Britain. In order to prepare his daughter Mary Cornelia for her first season in London in 1846, "he engaged an English woman, Elizabeth's mother Anne," as personal maid in hope of improving his daughter's English, and ridding her of a Welsh accent. page 30

              "Due in large measure to Anne's influence, Mary Cornelia's entrance into London society was a triumph." Three months after coming out she married George Vane-Tempest. At the time of his marriage George had a courtesy title of Earl Vane, in 1872 he inherited the estate and title of his half-brother, the fourth Marquess of Londonderry. page 30

              Anne and Mary Cornelia remained close friends. The friendship, "was rewarded when her fourth daughter Elizabeth was given the same post that her mother had held nearly 40 years before, lady's maid to the Marchioness of Londonderry." page 30

              On 6 November, 1884 George Vane-Tempest, fifth Marquess of Londonderry died. The Dowager Marchioness decided to return to Wales. page 33

              On page 34, "within days, it seems, of the Marquess' death," Elizabeth made other arrangements to stay in London. (This goes into parts that were previously hinted at here but not specifically described so I will say no more.)
              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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              • Hi All, got Marys First marriage certificate through today. The signatures dont match. see below. First to Craig 1884 second to Twocock 1906

                I will scan the craig marriage cert on tomorrow...
                Pat....
                Attached Files

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                • Thanks, Pat.
                  I'm wondering if that definitely is Elizabeth's signature on the first marriage certificate though?
                  Both Craig's and Elizabeth's signatures look the same. Is the handwriting the same on the rest of the certificate. If so I'd think it was just a registrar filled in copy of the entry. Not certain though without seeing the whole thing.

                  The second one is an actual image of the register entry so we know that one is definitely her signature.

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                  • Yes you may well be right Debra It does look like the same hand , here is the whole certificate. I dont understand why would someone else write it all?
                    Pat.....
                    Attached Files

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                    • Thanks for posting that, Pat.
                      If you order from the GRO then you usually get a certified copy of the original register entry, filled in to a certificate for you.

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                      • Wish I had known that,
                        is there any way to get a photo copy of the original Debra?

                        Pat......

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                        • It says at the bottom right its a superintendant registrars copy >

                          Pat.....

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
                            Wish I had known that,
                            is there any way to get a photo copy of the original Debra?

                            Pat......
                            Pat, a good few years ago when I contacted the Kensington and Chelsea Register Office about seeing their original marriage register to view the entry for the marriage of George Thomas Hutchinson {the 1887 watch stealer an stationer} they told me they still held the original registers there. It turned out that he was a Hutchison and not a Hutchinson anyway)
                            They were unable to copy the entry for me because they said the register was too fragile. You may be able to view a register at the office that keeps it. I don't know how easy that is to arrange though.


                            A certified copy, done by the registrar, takes the original details from the marriage register entry and copies them on to a new certificate.
                            When an original register has been microfilmed in the past, then it's possible to view the original register entry on film or digitised image of the film like the London marriages held at the LMA and digitised on Ancestry.

                            .

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                            • Thank Debra for the info.
                              I have been in touch with Fulham registry office and am wondering if I should send for another certificate. They were a bit vague with their answer when I tried to press the question would it be the actual signature.
                              I found this 1881 census in Pentrebach Llanenddwyn Merionethshire of an E.W Davies who was a milliner boarding with a family see below. Birth place not the same though but its pretty near....
                              Pat...
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • That looks promising, Pat.

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