Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Real Mary Kelly - Wynne Weston-Davies

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Drummond Street

    Prostitution on Drummond Street, of the sort that could provide for a luxury such as an umbrella; and involving, coincidentally, a prostitute called Mary Kelly:

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Reynolds's Newspaper 27 July 1890.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	85.3 KB
ID:	555101

    Reynolds Newspaper 27th July 1890
    Last edited by SGerrard; August 18, 2015, 01:58 PM. Reason: Forgot to reference.

    Comment


    • #47
      Ellen McLeod's death

      In the book, WWD claimed that Ellen Macleod died in 'her beloved France' which Livia discovered was incorrect and that Ellen actually died in 1896 in Scotland.

      From that date I was able to get a copy of the death entry in the Scottish Death registers for 1896. The record shows that Ellen MacLeod's husband was the informant and present at her death in Aberdeen. Ellen died in a house that Robert J M McLeod was listed as living at in the Post Office Aberdeen directory for 1896/7. He also appeared in the same directory under Naval personnel based on the H.M.S.'Clyde' in Aberdeen's Victoria Dock, listed as fleet paymaster. WWD suggested in the book that Ellen McLeod was separated from her husband.

      A Royal Navy Fleet Paymaster like R J M Macleod would have been on a substantial salary and also responsible for maintaining his wife, surely?

      Ellen's sister Charlotte, who also married a McLeod was made a widow in Feb 1891 and was sole beneficiary of the £600 her husband left in his will and she was living with her mother and family at that time, her husband died at 28 Collingham Place.
      Then there's the legitimate Kindergarten advertised at 23 Edwardes Square that one of the Maundrell women and a Miss Leigh Hunt were principals of.

      That's money coming in by legitimate means.





      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Edward Stow
        WWD does come across as an agreeable sort and although the book makes more certain claims - publishers invariably insist on this. He also writes well.
        Nevertheless he was not challenged on a number of his claims. This does not have to be done in an aggressive or rude manner and he may have had answers.
        I think that because he seems so pleasant and agreeable, people feel less inclined to cut to the chase.
        While there is no point in arguing since its in the can, I did address the fact that the McLeods did not reside in the place he puts them until 1891, I did address the problem time-wise with Craig stalking EWD. Two of the things you cite above thread. When a guests answer is apparently going to be "I accept that", "I could be wrong" "It was my conjecture" every time the host points out an error, it IMO would make for a more tedious and uncomfortabłe show.

        Plus, Wynne through no fault of his own was 45 minutes late to the scheduled record time, and so by the time we finished up, Paul, Robert and I were on the call for close to 4 hours. And so some of the questions (like the one submitted by Debs et al) I did have in front of me to ask had to be scrapped due to time.

        JM

        Comment


        • #49
          I wondered where the money was coming from to support the apparently affluent lifestyle of the Maundrells.
          Do you think there’s any evidence at all to date that they were involved with prostitution? The pupil listed as living with them in 1891, Eveline Frankland, appears to have been a governess later on, which might perhaps explain why she was living with the French-speaking Maundrells if that was her intention?

          Comment


          • #50
            Hi Debs, welcome back.

            Separated may mean in the physical sense rather
            than a legal separation.

            I counted 9 ships MacLeod was stationed on from
            the time of their marriage until Ellen's death in 1896
            and he doesn't appear on the 1881-91 censuses with
            the family. The nine ships was from newspaper notices,
            so there could have been more.

            There was a dispute over a bequest between Thomasin
            (Maundrell) Pearsall and R J Maundrell, where Mrs Pearsall
            tried to rescind an agreement over monies left by a Mrs
            Wray. It appears R J Maundrell was successful, so there
            would have been money coming in from that, as well as
            his regular employment as a timber merchant's clerk.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by SGerrard
              I wondered where the money was coming from to support the apparently affluent lifestyle of the Maundrells.
              Do you think there’s any evidence at all to date that they were involved with prostitution? The pupil listed as living with them in 1891, Eveline Frankland, appears to have been a governess later on, which might perhaps explain why she was living with the French-speaking Maundrells if that was her intention?
              Yes, I wondered if the pupils in residence were in fact pupil teachers they chaperoned, Sally, seeing as the Edwardes Square school was advertised as a Kindergarten and not a boarding school. When 23 Edwardes Square was originally built it was planned to be two dwellings but was built as one, (as was the house next door), to accommodate a school at the address instead of a residence only.
              Charles Gilder Maundrell had a studio there and painted 3 of his exhibited pictures there. One was bought in the late 1890's for the Tate Gallery by an organisation formed to buy up the work of talented British Artists to fill museums and art galleries with.

              Comment


              • #52
                I have been thinking along some of the lines that Robert mentions. Concerning marriage, who can say Elizabeth hadn't been married to a Mr. Jones? Maybe she eloped young with a collier named Jones.... WWD can't absolutely place Elizabeth as a lady's maid. A least that is what I understood from the podcast.

                Elizabeth married Craig near a festive holiday time. Maybe there was a lot of drinking going on. Maybe she was still married to Jones, if he didn't have an accident in a coal pit.

                I don't have the book but I assume Elizabeth was thought to go to France with Craig, and she didn't like the part and returned. When did she realise she and Craig were incompatible, or that he was perhaps to her mind, a creep?

                Why would she evade getting a divorce? If Craig killed her I would think a part of the motive wold have been frustration over not being able to serve her with divorce papers. Really.

                If the marriage to Craig was not valid, like she was already married and not divorced, she had no reason to go through with a divorce and plenty of reasons to avoid such a proceeding.

                WWD spoke of his talented and artistic family. There are many exceptional people in his family. A doctor I knew told me intelligent, artistic people tend to have higher emotional highs and lower lows. It need not be manic depression or bi-polar illness, but the passions are higher and lower than average people experience. Problems with alcohol can be part of the picture.

                One of the articles in the 'Telegraph' used the term "party animal" in explaining EWD. Was she the family black sheep who "married when young", maybe 16 or so, to a local fellow she loved passionately? If so she may never have been a lady's maid. She may have been temperamentally unsuited to such a position.

                That could also explain why Barnett never said anything about MJK/EWD having been in service at any point in her life. It could also explain why those she knew in the East End said she was artistic and better educated than others of her class while not apparently thinking she was overly refined or putting on airs or something. I would think much time spent as a lady's maid in a wealthy household would have caused a big change in her personality that would have been noticed by others.
                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Livia Trivia
                  Hi Debs, welcome back.

                  Separated may mean in the physical sense rather
                  than a legal separation.

                  I counted 9 ships MacLeod was stationed on from
                  the time of their marriage until Ellen's death in 1896
                  and he doesn't appear on the 1881-91 censuses with
                  the family. The nine ships was from newspaper notices,
                  so there could have been more.

                  There was a dispute over a bequest between Thomasin
                  (Maundrell) Pearsall and R J Maundrell, where Mrs Pearsall
                  tried to rescind an agreement over monies left by a Mrs
                  Wray. It appears R J Maundrell was successful, so there
                  would have been money coming in from that, as well as
                  his regular employment as a timber merchant's clerk.
                  Hi Liv. Thanks.
                  Yes, he was away most of the time. I sent WWD the death entry last week and he said he was surprised they were living together when Ellen died.

                  In the book Wynne says-" In 1877 she married William Macleod, son of another expatriate, but his life as a Purser in the Royal Navy kept him in the Far East for most of his life and, apart from an only child – Helen Kathleen, born the year after their wedding – they had little in common and the marriage eventually ended in separation 27."

                  Weston-Davies, Wynne (2015-08-13). The Real Mary Kelly: Jack the Ripper's Fifth Victim and the Identity of the Man That Killed Her (Kindle Locations 453-455). Blink Publishing. Kindle Edition.


                  Note 27 explains that McLeod's career suffered in 1895 when he had some sort of breakdown and alcohol abuse and suggests it may have been when he discovered his wife was a brothel madam.

                  I wonder if it was more to do with them discovering she was ill with a tumour of the spine. In the same note WWD also makes mention that McLeod left all his money to his only daughter. That was because Ellen was already dead though, we know now, thanks to you.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Christer Holmgren
                    Originally posted by Jon Menges
                    I'd actually like to have Ed on to talk just about Cross... Christer too
                    But no matter who you go for, you will get the killer.
                    You heard it here first, folks. Jack the Ripper was in fact two accomplices: Ed Stow and Christer Holmgren.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen"
                    (F. Nietzsche)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by JMenges
                      Lucky for us he turned out to be a completely agreeable and open-minded guest who appreciated the extra research being done on Elizabeth.
                      I should say, JM. What a splendid chap; what an interesting, and beautifully-modulated, speaker.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen"
                      (F. Nietzsche)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Ellen McLeod's husband was quite senior in his position and would have been disgraced if his wife turned out to be a brothel keeper. For her to have taken up brothel keeping on the side while hubby was away at sea would almost imply that she had some sort of eccentric screw loose.
                        You will find that virtually all female brothel keepers were and are ex prostitutes.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I am working on kind of a hopeless enterprise I think, but I will throw out the idea and see if anyone has any advice.

                          Just in case EWD married young, to a collier named Jones, who died in an explosion, I did some basic research. Working from EWD's likely birth year 1857, I find a John Jones, married, killed 3 December, 1875 in the New Tredegar mine, Bedwelty. No ages given.

                          Two other Jones were killed that day but both were single. A year or two later another Jones was killed in a pit disaster but he was 27, married with a child. Prior to the 1875 New Tredegar disaster I didn't find Jones in the casualty lists.

                          Of course you all know what happens when one looks for Elizabeth Davies marrying John Jones in Wales. There are 15 possibilities two years previous to the 1875 disaster. I have learned quite a bit about Welsh geography and can narrow it a bit by dropping some towns like Cardiff in South Wales or Dolgelly where Gareth says no girl would ever go wrong. I could probably narrow it even more but think I will end up with too many ED + JJ on pages of four.

                          I am willing to do hard, repetitive work but have no idea how to get near a definitive answer on this one. (I also remember that a few hours ago I considered if EWD was still married to a Jones when she married Craig. Anything is possible.)
                          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Edward Stow
                            For her to have taken up brothel keeping on the side... would almost imply that she had some sort of eccentric screw loose.
                            I thought loose screws would have been the order of the day in such an establishment.
                            You will find that virtually all female brothel keepers were and are ex prostitutes.
                            Well, a woman's gotta start sometime.

                            Joking apart - I fully agree, Ed.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn
                              and beautifully-modulated, speaker.
                              Why thank you, Gareth. I made sure to have his voice exit out of both channels in stereo this time around.

                              JM

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Anna Morris
                                Just in case EWD married young, to a collier named Jones, who died in an explosion, I did some basic research. Working from EWD's likely birth year 1857, I find a John Jones, married, killed 3 December, 1875 in the New Tredegar mine, Bedwelty.
                                There's that Bedwellty connection, again! For such a small town, it has a fair share of teasing (pseudo-)connections to "MJK".
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen"
                                (F. Nietzsche)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X
                                👍