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The Real Mary Kelly - Wynne Weston-Davies

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    Sorry not her as this one was in the 1871 census as well as Elizabeth Davies of Talyllyn....Pat...

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    That looks promising, Pat.

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    Thank Debra for the info.
    I have been in touch with Fulham registry office and am wondering if I should send for another certificate. They were a bit vague with their answer when I tried to press the question would it be the actual signature.
    I found this 1881 census in Pentrebach Llanenddwyn Merionethshire of an E.W Davies who was a milliner boarding with a family see below. Birth place not the same though but its pretty near....
    Pat...
    Attached Files

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
    Wish I had known that,
    is there any way to get a photo copy of the original Debra?

    Pat......
    Pat, a good few years ago when I contacted the Kensington and Chelsea Register Office about seeing their original marriage register to view the entry for the marriage of George Thomas Hutchinson {the 1887 watch stealer an stationer} they told me they still held the original registers there. It turned out that he was a Hutchison and not a Hutchinson anyway)
    They were unable to copy the entry for me because they said the register was too fragile. You may be able to view a register at the office that keeps it. I don't know how easy that is to arrange though.


    A certified copy, done by the registrar, takes the original details from the marriage register entry and copies them on to a new certificate.
    When an original register has been microfilmed in the past, then it's possible to view the original register entry on film or digitised image of the film like the London marriages held at the LMA and digitised on Ancestry.

    .

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    It says at the bottom right its a superintendant registrars copy >

    Pat.....

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    Wish I had known that,
    is there any way to get a photo copy of the original Debra?

    Pat......

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Thanks for posting that, Pat.
    If you order from the GRO then you usually get a certified copy of the original register entry, filled in to a certificate for you.

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    Yes you may well be right Debra It does look like the same hand , here is the whole certificate. I dont understand why would someone else write it all?
    Pat.....
    Attached Files

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Thanks, Pat.
    I'm wondering if that definitely is Elizabeth's signature on the first marriage certificate though?
    Both Craig's and Elizabeth's signatures look the same. Is the handwriting the same on the rest of the certificate. If so I'd think it was just a registrar filled in copy of the entry. Not certain though without seeing the whole thing.

    The second one is an actual image of the register entry so we know that one is definitely her signature.

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    Hi All, got Marys First marriage certificate through today. The signatures dont match. see below. First to Craig 1884 second to Twocock 1906

    I will scan the craig marriage cert on tomorrow...
    Pat....
    Attached Files

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  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
    What might be awful is that this woman's story, saying she was a prostitute and no good, could have been stated by a man whos wife had left him.
    It could be his words of bitterness were believed by her family because he was a journalist. She might have not got on with him and just waited and met someone else.

    I did not find anything to support that her mother worked for the Vane Tempest family, is there anything in the book? She appears in the census to have brought up her own family then married David Evans a Talyllyn grocer (might have been draper) and helped in the shop....

    Pat...............
    "At the age of 19 Elizabeth's mother had become lady's maid to the 16-year-old daughter of a Montgomeryshire landowner, John Edwards," page 30. Edwards owned hillsides full of slate and became one of the richest men in Britain. In order to prepare his daughter Mary Cornelia for her first season in London in 1846, "he engaged an English woman, Elizabeth's mother Anne," as personal maid in hope of improving his daughter's English, and ridding her of a Welsh accent. page 30

    "Due in large measure to Anne's influence, Mary Cornelia's entrance into London society was a triumph." Three months after coming out she married George Vane-Tempest. At the time of his marriage George had a courtesy title of Earl Vane, in 1872 he inherited the estate and title of his half-brother, the fourth Marquess of Londonderry. page 30

    Anne and Mary Cornelia remained close friends. The friendship, "was rewarded when her fourth daughter Elizabeth was given the same post that her mother had held nearly 40 years before, lady's maid to the Marchioness of Londonderry." page 30

    On 6 November, 1884 George Vane-Tempest, fifth Marquess of Londonderry died. The Dowager Marchioness decided to return to Wales. page 33

    On page 34, "within days, it seems, of the Marquess' death," Elizabeth made other arrangements to stay in London. (This goes into parts that were previously hinted at here but not specifically described so I will say no more.)

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    1881 Welsh Census

    In Montgomeryshire Darowen working for a famer Richard Davies born 1808 in Darowent. (also wife Mary and Sons Edward Hunphrey and Evan)

    Elizabeth Jones
    b1859 in Talyllyn Merionethshire.
    Unmarried
    General servant

    If you look at the census there is an Ebineezer Jones b 1792 Llanowyddyn, Montgomeryshire might be something to do with her name?

    Pat....

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  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Pat Marshall View Post
    What might be awful is that this woman's story, saying she was a prostitute and no good, could have been stated by a man whos wife had left him.
    It could be his words of bitterness were believed by her family because he was a journalist. She might have not got on with him and just waited and met someone else.

    I did not find anything to support that her mother worked for the Vane Tempest family, is there anything in the book? She appears in the census to have brought up her own family then married David Evans a Talyllyn grocer (might have been draper) and helped in the shop....

    Pat...............
    Absolutely right,Pat.
    I thought similar things. What's sad is that x amount of years later a direct relation seems willing to sell out a female member of his own family for cash.

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  • Pat Marshall
    replied
    What might be awful is that this woman's story, saying she was a prostitute and no good, could have been stated by a man whos wife had left him.
    It could be his words of bitterness were believed by her family because he was a journalist. She might have not got on with him and just waited and met someone else.

    I did not find anything to support that her mother worked for the Vane Tempest family, is there anything in the book? She appears in the census to have brought up her own family then married David Evans a Talyllyn grocer (might have been draper) and helped in the shop....

    Pat...............

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra Arif
    replied
    I initially had the opposite feeling, Anna. I thought Weston Davies' inclusion in the book that he had been given some sort of permission in principal (not sure of the actual legal term used) to exhume MJK's body was being used to add weight to his identification of Mary Jane Kelly as Elizabeth Weston Davies (and sell books!) but that was as far as he intended to go down the exhumation avenue 0nce his book was published. He did mention at the time that it would be costly to carry out an actual exhumation and that others were interested in pursuing this avenue. Now we all know who those people were.

    I agree completely with the rest of your post. I feel there's much more to uncover about the inhabitants of Pennington Street in the early 80's and their mass move to Limehouse..

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